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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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I’ve been trying to troubleshoot a noise that I believe is either coming from the transmission or the clutch release/throwout bearing and am hoping I can get some guidance on what to look at next. I’ve searched and nothing quite matches the symptoms going on with my car- ‘71 manual Squareback.
When you sit in the car with it idling and foot off the clutch there’s a whirring/rubbing/whine sound that you hear running down the tunnel that stops when you depress the clutch. I’ve been poking around with an engine stethoscope under the car and can hear what sounds like that same noise at both the front and back of the transmission. But also could just be what a transmission sounds like when you’re listening with a stethoscope?
One thread I found says with a noise and symptoms like that it’s the a bad main shaft bearing in the transmission, others said they’ve had similar experiences with a bad throwout bearing. In both cases people seem to have been able to drive for either years or explode said part in short order.
I noticed this sound before parking marigold for the winter and again now. It’s probably been in the last 200ish miles. I’ve done valves and a tune up, checked the Bowden tube sag, readjusted clutch pedal freeplay, checked that the spring isn’t broken at the clutch arm, and the clutch arm on the trans still has some play and can move it a small amount by hand. Trans is dry, no leaking fluid. Does anyone else have any ideas of what to check or what it might be? Is this a TO bearing replacement or a full trans rebuild? I’m still hoping I can get this fixed in time to make it to the invasion  |
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Intrinsic
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2011
Posts: 262
Location: Clearwater, FL
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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Does the sound change when the clutch pedal is depressed? This would help to isolate the TO bearing and input shaft bushing as sources of the noise you are hearing.
If you suspect internal bearing damage, a good diagnostic step is to remove the magnetized drain plug from the transmission and to inspect the attached filings to see if they can be attributed to normal or excessive wear, or even to a specific transmission component. This also allows you to change the transmission oil, which helps to eliminate lubricant contamination or breakdown, when evaluating such an unattributed noise. |
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| Intrinsic wrote: |
| Does the sound change when the clutch pedal is depressed? This would help to isolate the TO bearing and input shaft bushing as sources of the noise you are hearing. |
The sound does change with the clutch pedal depressed, listening with the stethoscope it becomes quieter, without it it sounds like it goes away. And that’s good to know. I’ll pull the drainplug and post pictures to see if that points to anything specific. Thank you! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
I’ve been trying to troubleshoot a noise that I believe is either coming from the transmission or the clutch release/throwout bearing and am hoping I can get some guidance on what to look at next. I’ve searched and nothing quite matches the symptoms going on with my car- ‘71 manual Squareback.
When you sit in the car with it idling and foot off the clutch there’s a whirring/rubbing/whine sound that you hear running down the tunnel that stops when you depress the clutch. I’ve been poking around with an engine stethoscope under the car and can hear what sounds like that same noise at both the front and back of the transmission. But also could just be what a transmission sounds like when you’re listening with a stethoscope?
One thread I found says with a noise and symptoms like that it’s the a bad main shaft bearing in the transmission, others said they’ve had similar experiences with a bad throwout bearing. In both cases people seem to have been able to drive for either years or explode said part in short order.
I noticed this sound before parking marigold for the winter and again now. It’s probably been in the last 200ish miles. I’ve done valves and a tune up, checked the Bowden tube sag, readjusted clutch pedal freeplay, checked that the spring isn’t broken at the clutch arm, and the clutch arm on the trans still has some play and can move it a small amount by hand. Trans is dry, no leaking fluid. Does anyone else have any ideas of what to check or what it might be? Is this a TO bearing replacement or a full trans rebuild? I’m still hoping I can get this fixed in time to make it to the invasion |
I had that issue with my 65 Notch (IRS trans). It turned out to be the throw out bearing. It would make noise while sitting there in neutral, but pushing the clutch pedal made it go away. The old TB had basically ran out of grease. Replaced it and all is quiet again.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
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| Tram wrote: |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| I had that issue with my 65 Notch (IRS trans). It turned out to be the throw out bearing. It would make noise while sitting there in neutral, but pushing the clutch pedal made it go away. The old TB had basically ran out of grease. Replaced it and all is quiet again. |
| Erik G wrote: |
| yep - classic throwout bearing as Bob said, luckily it's easy and cheap |
I’m glad to hear that that seems to be the consensus. I’m probably overthinking it, but I went on another drive and my transmission does seem a bit louder while driving. Hopefully that’s just another symptom..
I checked the trans fluid level and it was full, a drip came out as soon as I loosened the fill plug. And figured it didn’t hurt to drain it and check the plug in case anything looked weird. Here’s a pic of the drain plug just in case, but it sounds like I’ll be putting in a new throwout bearing this weekend, thank you guys! Fingers crossed!
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4857
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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If your clutch is out your throw out bearing cannot make noise as it is not moving at all, can you hear a throw out bearing with the engine off? No, because it is in the exact position as with it running and clutch out.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| If your clutch is out your throw out bearing cannot make noise as it is not moving at all, can you hear a throw out bearing with the engine off? No, because it is in the exact position as with it running and clutch out. |
In an ideal situation, that would be true. However, we don't know the clutch free play, the condition of the pressure plate, whether the fork is tweaked, or the condition of the fork bushings. A lot of variables that could cause the TO bearing to be skimming on the pressure plate. If you remove the cable adjustment nut from the cable, and the noise goes away, it's probably the TO bearing.
Just remember when you drop the engine, apply a little grease inside the gland nut
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4857
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| If your clutch is out your throw out bearing cannot make noise as it is not moving at all, can you hear a throw out bearing with the engine off? No, because it is in the exact position as with it running and clutch out. |
In an ideal situation, that would be true. However, we don't know the clutch free play, the condition of the pressure plate, whether the fork is tweaked, or the condition of the fork bushings. A lot of variables that could cause the TO bearing to be skimming on the pressure plate. If you remove the cable adjustment nut from the cable, and the noise goes away, it's probably the TO bearing.
Just remember when you drop the engine, apply a little grease inside the gland nut |
If this was the case the tob would have self destructed long time ago.
Clutch in, noise gone, equals transmission because the transmission stopped.
Clutch in, noise present is the tob as it now is in motion and under a load.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
In an ideal situation, that would be true. However, we don't know the clutch free play, the condition of the pressure plate, whether the fork is tweaked, or the condition of the fork bushings. A lot of variables that could cause the TO bearing to be skimming on the pressure plate. If you remove the cable adjustment nut from the cable, and the noise goes away, it's probably the TO bearing.
Just remember when you drop the engine, apply a little grease inside the gland nut |
| mcmscott wrote: |
If this was the case the tob would have self destructed long time ago.
Clutch in, noise gone, equals transmission because the transmission stopped.
Clutch in, noise present is the tob as it now is in motion and under a load. |
Thanks for the advice & clarification! I was hopeful based on bobsnotch’s experience which mirrors this even though it is technically contrary to the symptoms. I removed the clutch cable wingnut entirely and am still hearing the sound.
I guess that means the transmission is the culprit  I’m pulling the engine today, maybe there will be a smoking gun once the engine is out with something funky with the fork or throwout bearing |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
If this was the case the tob would have self destructed long time ago.
Clutch in, noise gone, equals transmission because the transmission stopped.
Clutch in, noise present is the tob as it now is in motion and under a load. |
All of that might be true, but I can only report what fixed my own car. This was also 5 years after I replaced the entire clutch assembly. Since replacing the tob, I haven't heard that noise again in over 4 years.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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Okay, so got the engine out. Not sure that there was a smoking gun, but wanted to share pictures and video of the TO bearing to see if anything sticks out to anyone. Sorry for the sideways videos.
It does seem kind of wet in the bellhouse and doesn’t smell like gear oil so was going to check the main seal just in case. Will also check the pilot bearing in the gland nut.
Bobsnotch, any chance you remember if your throwout was particularly noisy when you replaced it? And thank you Multi69s! All motor mounts were solid before engine came out.
This may not work at all but maybe I can try spinning the input shaft in the trans to see if that’s where the sound is coming from? Though I guess it may not move fast enough. Hmm
Link
Link
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Multi69s
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Location: Lefty, CA
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4857
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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Pull trans, then pull nose cone. you will see where the noise is coming from. Before that, pull and push on the input shaft(in and out), any movement is coming from the mainshaft bearing.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
Okay, so got the engine out. Not sure that there was a smoking gun, but wanted to share pictures and video of the TO bearing to see if anything sticks out to anyone. Sorry for the sideways videos.
It does seem kind of wet in the bellhouse and doesn’t smell like gear oil so was going to check the main seal just in case. Will also check the pilot bearing in the gland nut.
Bobsnotch, any chance you remember if your throwout was particularly noisy when you replaced it? And thank you Multi69s! All motor mounts were solid before engine came out.
This may not work at all but maybe I can try spinning the input shaft in the trans to see if that’s where the sound is coming from? Though I guess it may not move fast enough. Hmm
Link
Link
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I think mine was louder. It did spin that free however. Once you have it out, hold 1 half in your hand and slowly spin the other half. What you're looking for is a rough feeling out of the bearing (a square bearing to be exact). If you feel anything that's kind of "notchy", then you know it's a goner. I'd probably take the 3 bolts out and inspect the trans seal while I'm right there. After all the bell housing looks wet, and you're smelling gear lube. Replace the seal while your there if see any seepage. When you get your new TB, do a spin of it, and you'll see it won't spin as freely as your current one. That's how you know the old one is out of grease.
Note; if you still have the noise once it's back together, check the generator bearings (pull the belt). I think Jim installed a set a year or 2 ago, so they should be fine, but it's a good quick check for some piece of mind.
You might have to try what mcmscott suggested IF you still have the noise.
Since you have the tools, I'd take a look at the rest of the clutch too. Your disc might be oil soaked. While it won't cause the noise, it can/will cause some slippage.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Pull trans, then pull nose cone. you will see where the noise is coming from. Before that, pull and push on the input shaft(in and out), any movement is coming from the mainshaft bearing. |
Thank you, I think this is maybe the smoking gun then, I’m hearing a click when I pull and push on the input shaft. Here’s a video of it:
Link
| bobsnotch wrote: |
I think mine was louder. It did spin that free however. Once you have it out, hold 1 half in your hand and slowly spin the other half. What you're looking for is a rough feeling out of the bearing (a square bearing to be exact). If you feel anything that's kind of "notchy", then you know it's a goner. I'd probably take the 3 bolts out and inspect the trans seal while I'm right there. After all the bell housing looks wet, and you're smelling gear lube. Replace the seal while your there if see any seepage. When you get your new TB, do a spin of it, and you'll see it won't spin as freely as your current one. That's how you know the old one is out of grease.
Note; if you still have the noise once it's back together, check the generator bearings (pull the belt). I think Jim installed a set a year or 2 ago, so they should be fine, but it's a good quick check for some piece of mind.
You might have to try what mcmscott suggested IF you still have the noise.
Since you have the tools, I'd take a look at the rest of the clutch too. Your disc might be oil soaked. While it won't cause the noise, it can/will cause some slippage.
I hope this helps. |
Thank you! This does help, I don’t feel any notches, or rough part of the bearings but I can definitely tell a difference between the new and old bearings. The new one does not spin as freely. And sorry, to clarify the liquid did not smell like gear oil, so I was going to look at the main seal. Was going to check the clutch too, just since it’s out. And still can’t hurt to check the bearing in the gland nut too, I figure? In case the movement of the input shaft could’ve affected anything there?
It sounds like it’s going to be the transmission, from the input shaft play? |
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cyberfastback1
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Joined: October 18, 2003
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| If you end up needing another Tranny.. I've got at least 1-2 good used units. You can take one for free if you can make it up to Peekskill .Got to make sure you get to the Invasion. |
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periscopebill
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| cyberfastback1 wrote: |
| If you end up needing another Tranny.. I've got at least 1-2 good used units. You can take one for free if you can make it up to Peekskill .Got to make sure you get to the Invasion. |
Thank you!! That is so kind of you, sending you a pm. |
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jadney
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Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Marigold: Transmission or TO bearing? |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Pull trans, then pull nose cone. you will see where the noise is coming from. Before that, pull and push on the input shaft(in and out), any movement is coming from the mainshaft bearing. |
Don't forget that the mainshaft is in 2 pieces, joined by a splined coupling. That coupling is between the clutch and any of the mainshaft bearings, and there is always a bit of intensional play in that coupling.
The play I see in the video is probably normal play from that coupling.
If you take off the nose cone and find mainshaft play from that end, then I agree that could be the problem. But to take that off, you need to have a new nose cone gasket ready, because you'll probably destroy the old one.
It still seems possible to me that this coult be engine noise. I think the very next thing to do would be to verify that the crankshaft end play is still within specs. I'm just thinking that this was a recent engine rebuild and that our trannys have always been exceptionally robust. Given those possibilities, I'd want to make SURE the problem wasn't in the engine, specifically in the #1 thrust.
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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