01P rebuild

[mvaska]

I'm going to attempt a rebuild of my 01P AT in the coming months. I'd like advice on a few opening questions:

1. I haven't disassembled the transmission to check for show-stopping damage. Reading around it seems that even if there is damaged core parts I can simply drag one from an 01M at the yard. Should I proceed with purchasing parts or wait until I've done a full inspection?

If "no need to wait" then...

2. There are lots of options for rebuild kits. Last thing I need is to go through the trouble and put junk parts in there. There are "Master rebuild", regular "rebuild", etc. Ebay vs legit suppliers, etc. Not to mention some kits look exactly the same but are priced $100 dif. Then there's the matter that from reading, there is little mech difference between 01m & 01p but sometimes significant price dif.

If you're a pro and you're rebuilding your own 01P .. which kit do you buy?

[jjvincent]

Google: 75006DBP

This gives you everything (plus extras you probably won't use) but the correct 4th gear clutch pack. I reused mine since it showed no wear. I think the 4th gear clutch pack is the same as a 01M for a VR6 Jetta/Golf. You can use the one in the kit but VW went with a design that added in 3 clutch disks. Somewhere after the fact, I found that you can get those parts.

The kit is made by Transtar. Bonded pistons (which are better than the factory ones) and Exedy clutches. Comes with all other gaskets and seals. Plus the rings that supply pressure to the torque converter (same type of rings that are on the cams for a 24V VR6 that supply pressure to the cam phasers).

The kit is around $550.

[jjvincent]

A few things you need to do before you tear into it.
1. Check if there are any codes. The one in particular is the Torque Converter Lockup Clutch. If it's not there, then you can pretty much forgo sticking in a rebuilt torque converter. If it's intermittent and you are having shifting problems, most likely, it's a valve body that can't supply enough pressure to the lockup clutch, thus when the TCU tells the transmission to lock up the clutch, the clutch slips. It knows this because there a speed sensor on the transmission. If the crankshaft speed is faster than the transmission speed and the clutch is to be locked up, it's slipping.

2. Take the transmission apart first. Don't just start buying things because you never know what you might find inside.

3. Don't buy a used 01M unless you can get it dirt cheap and you'll need a hard part (i.e. drum). Even at that, you can find the hard parts online (like when mine blew out and damaged a drum). As for the wear items, you don't want other wore out items unless you are going to flip the van and just need to get it moving and let it someone elses problem a year down the road.

4. Buy the kit I indicated and a few other things. I'd buy a new sprag clutch (sometimes called roller clutch). The old one can be easily damaged because the plastic is like glass. Then buy a ribbon (your old one is like glass).

5. I strongly suggest a shop manual before you do anything. The Bentley is quite good but it acts as a sanity check to make sure you get everything back in properly. Last thing you want to do is rebuild the transmission and promptly destroy it or have a major shifting problem because you put a thrust washer in upside down.

Here's the place where I buy my parts. You'll have to do some research for the exact code that your transmission is. I stay away from Ebay for jobs like this. It's just my experience.

http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/VW-095.html

[gakali]

Maybe a step by step with pictures is in order here
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Why do it? Because you can.

1999 Eurovan
2003 A4 Avant 1.8T Quattro
1992 W201 190e 2.3 Mercedes
2006 W220 S600 V12 Twin Turbo 5.5 Mercedes

[jjvincent]

I've been working on some things but I think that within a month or so, we can get just a good database for people to fix things like this. It'll happen and I think that in a few years, a EV will not be something that people will fear.

Remember, the Vanagon Syncro was a disaster when it was only a few years old. As of today, it's looked as a must have item. That's because we all know how to fix those items that always break.

[mvaska]

Finally (!!!) had some time to spend in the garage to tear into this transmission.

Clearly the intermediate clutch disintegrated with some plates getting jammed into case. Also the reverse drum springs are all scattered (expected)and the center support has a pretty rough groove cut into it where some ring clearly melted.

Finally, 2 of the Planet gears seems to have notches cut into them.

On the plus side: all the other clutch packs look fine (I'd replace them of course but at least they aren't in pieces). Given the disintegration I'm surprised by how clean/fine the rest of the parts look.


I can clean up the scrapped up walls. Seems like I'll want to replace or sand down the center support to remove burrs (unless this rough groove is normal -- can't imagine that it is).. The planet gear notches don't seem significant enough to worry about.

So the question becomes.. Worth the cash/time to overhaul? If replacing the case is deemed necessary I don't see the point of a rebuild. If the hard parts (center support and planet) are difficult/expensive to replace I also don't see a point in rebuilding.

Thoughts?

Here are the pix:

[Stripped66]

[Stripped66]

[mvaska]

Thanks for the response. Interesting. So you buy a master rebuild kit and then because the plates are too thick you've got to machine them down to spec... a spec which is anyone's guess. yikes.

Based on closer inspection and your feedback the only hard part I really need to replace is the reverse drum which is probably serviceable but also fairly cheap on ebay ($65).

Then of course... buy, find it doesn't work... (as you point out) .. return.. etc. etc.

But that said, I played with the parts and short of putting something in reverse that shouldn't be reversed (as jj mentioned) it seems actually pretty straight forward.

Looks like about $1200 for everything including new/used reverse drum. That is: master rebuild kit + a few extra parts and full VB rebuild parts...

[Stripped66]

[mvaska]

Thanks man.. Really appreciate it. I've had time to get a little further. Got the master rebuild and it's all making more sense now.

Actually all the new parts look really pretty spot on except.....

The k3 (3-4 clutch) has fewer plates but they're much thicker. The orig is toast so no way to compare. Here's a pic of old/new.. you can clearly see that the new steels are much thicker and count 5 instead of 6.

The rebuild kit doesn't come with a new k3 pressure plate which is special because it has a friction side (none of the other pressure plates have this).. naturally this friction side burned out so it'll have to be replaced. +$23

So I'm inferring from my research, lack of definition in repair manuals and your comments that the thickness is sorta... get it close, make sure it moves easily when packed and cross your fingers?

Oh, stator to reverse drum thrust washer burned too apparently... can't even find a hint of it.

[Stripped66]

How do the thickness of the K3 steels compare, old vs. new?

The other issue I found was with the new clutches (inners): the steel base for the friction material was thicker than that on the stock clutch.


FWIW, I bought the same kit that jjvincent posted, which came with 6 clutches...but clearly, he didn't report the same issues with variation in clutch/steel dimensions as I found. I think it's an absolute crap-shoot what you're going to pull out of your transmission, and what you're going to pull out of the rebuild-kit.

I would do whatever you can to ensure the same number of clutches go back into K3. I don't know how much the 'adaptive' TCM can compensate for the softer engagement on the 2-3 shift that would result from fewer clutches, as well potentially increased wear.
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[Stripped66]

One last point of frustration, based on your K3 having 6 steels and 7 clutches, your transmission should be an EQJ code.

The overall dimensions of the K3 drum for the 6-clutch version (in my 01P) and the 5-clutch version (in most non-VR6 01M's and low-HP 01P's) are the same, but the groove for the circlip is at a different height to provide room for the additional clutch. IMO (I could be wrong?), there is no room to move the circlip groove further up the K3 drum to fit the 7th clutch...

...what I'm getting at is this: either the EQJ with the 7-clutch K3 has a longer K3 drum. Or, it has the same K3 drum as the earlier transmission with 6 clutches, but used much thinner steels and clutches to fit them all within the limited space of that drum...the latter issue may be a huge headache.

If you want to measure the dimensions of your K3 drum and compare them to the dimensions I have for the 5- and 6- clutch K3 drums, you might be able to sort out how you're going to fit 7 clutches back into that drum (if at all with the new clutches and/or steels you have from the rebuild kit).
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[mvaska]

So helpful.. !

Next time I'm in the garage I'll get precise measurements for everything on the stock K3 I have; Steels, clutches, length and location of circlip groove.


I noticed on Cobra Transmission site they have three different K3 steels for sale in various thicknesses. And even one-sided clutches. So that seems to back up that there are at least 3 variations of the K3.

[Zeitgeist 13]

Since the 01M and 01P transmissions are virtually the same, I thought I'd post this info here for ya'll to consider:

http://vwdiesel.net/o1m-kerma-mod-or-increasing-the-line-pressure/#sthash.W2dIr5JY.dpbs


Link

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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Stripped66]

I suggest anybody considering this mod thoroughly search forums posts for the long-term effects before risking the potential damage it could cause.
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[Zeitgeist 13]

Are you aware of any detrimental impacts from this mod? I stumbled on this info while searching for something entirely unrelated, so it's the first I've heard of this
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Stripped66]

[mvaska]

After tinkering with this for around 18 months I finally had to get it out of the garage and committed time to completing the AT rebuild and getting it and the overhauled engine into the van and out the door.

I've driven it a few times now with no error codes and like-new shifting so I'm calling it a success.

Learned a ton and, generally have the following observations:

1) there are significant differences in plates, steels and spacers between the repair manual and (it seems) between all the various versions of the 01m/p. I should have carefully recorded number and thickness of everything before ordering the rebuild kit as I ended up not using two sets of plates and 3 sets of steels.

2) getting the correct hard parts and plates took the longest.

3) pressing apart the 4th was tricky as i couldn't find a correctly sized ring to set it into. eventually i used two v shaped pieces of metal and prayed that it wouldn't bend things... it didn't but i probably got lucky. i've read that a jetta break rotor is correct.

4) tolerances are actually quite wide and that makes it easier but i focused on getting the exact thick replacements instead of shimming or grinding down thrust plates.

5) i had to put things back together a bunch of times before i get the right amount of play on the TC side... everything moved easily but didn't feel loose. the repair manual has the exact tolerances but it's pretty obvious if something is too thick. in the end it was that the 4th wasn't pressed in all the way and a few replacements rings were just a hair too thick... ended up just putting the originals back in.

6) makco is where i got the master rebuild kit. probably wouldn't do that again -- i'd just replace the worn parts. they didn't respond or weren't really helpful when i started looking for specific hard parts or plates.

7) i got some 01m hard parts on ebay (eg. reverse apply clutch assembly was ground to a mess) and a Florida Torque Converter.

8 wittrans.com saved the project for me. their website has all the different plates and they were really responsive when called or e-mailed. if it's not on their website call them and they'll probably be able to get it.

9) german transaxle (thankfully) provided the last hard part i couldn't find anywhere else: a set of springs for the 2-4 apply clutch... but with shipping the cost for each spring was exorbitant.


i also rebuilt the VB which is my 3rd time doing that (3 different vans) but that's covered in a previous thread.

[Stripped66]

Great job!
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