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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 851
Location: South Florida
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| @TC/TeamEvil - Your threaded rod would probably not be spring steel, but would have to withstand twisting whenever one side (front left or front right tire) is bump'd more than the other. Wonder how long or how many miles or uneven bumps before it would snap; or would it be okay? Or, maybe build it so as to make the threaded rod sort of like an axle, and allow trailing arms to rotate with respect to the 'axle' rod. |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| TC/TeamEvil wrote: |
I have a silly question about all of this. We're building an extremely budget conscious Mini-T, honestly it's being built out of table scraps and old spare parts.
With this in mind I was wondering if I could cheap out by remove all of the leaves in the lower torsion bar, pick up a threaded rod with a small enough diameter that it would pass through the center internal section of the torsion housing, and then pop the plastic caps off of the torsion arms, fit them back in place with the rods poking out through the square holes, put on an appropriately sized washer and just use Ny-lok nuts and thread locker to tighten everything back up.
The arms would move freely and independently in the bushings and not be connected torsionally to each other, the rod and lock nuts would serve to keep the arms in the tube, and the upper torsion leaves would remain as-is and do their normal job. Some stock VW shocks to finish things up and . . . well . . . seems like really cheap way out of a too stiff ride quality.
I know that this idea is just totally Hillbilly, and it IS the steering/suspension end of an already sketchy vehicle, and is pretty much the only thing responsible for keeping me and other motorists and pedestrians safe and sound, so why not go low budget with a possible bad idea, right ?
Wondering if this idea would work and not kill me or others?
Thanks— |
i think i would steer away from using threaded rod. as each side could possibly flex differently it could potentially loosen the nuts even if they were lock nuts. and if you loose that tension you could loose control |
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TC/TeamEvil
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Anyone know what kind of through-rods are used when the leaves are removed for coil-over shock conversion or air ride ? One of those might work rather than the simple threaded rod. |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| i read on here somewhere that there was 2 different number of shims in the link pin set up, one has dust seals the other does not, mine set up is new enough to have the dust seals but they are not there. i have enough shim to use 10 per pin, so am i able to use 10 like the older version and follow the 10 shim chart? |
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Over9K
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2018
Posts: 14
Location: The Dragon
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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I noticed a lot of the '58-'67 guys were running without front shocks, to smooth out the ride on extreme narrowed adjustable beams.
Any buggy guys doing that? |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9143
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Over9K wrote: |
I noticed a lot of the '58-'67 guys were running without front shocks, to smooth out the ride on extreme narrowed adjustable beams.
Any buggy guys doing that? |
I've never seen it, but most of us like cars that handle decently. Personally I think it's one of the stupidest things done. Without shocks the front springs just keep bouncing and on the light front end of a buggy you would loose control in a hurry.
brad |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5469
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Over9K wrote: |
I noticed a lot of the '58-'67 guys were running without front shocks, to smooth out the ride on extreme narrowed adjustable beams.
Any buggy guys doing that? |
There are no front shocks on my Mini-T because the king and link pin beam shock towers don't clear the body. I would not recommend ditching the shocks, but with the light front end weight on my buggy (maybe 400 lb.) with stock torsion bars the bouncing isn't bad. The more the suspension moves the more the bouncing would become annoying. I will eventually make some friction shocks for it.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Over9K wrote: |
I noticed a lot of the '58-'67 guys were running without front shocks, to smooth out the ride on extreme narrowed adjustable beams.
Any buggy guys doing that? |
Those narrowed beetle guys do not run shocks because the suspension does not jounce. They use the shitty Red Urethane bushings that are so tight, the bushings themselves act as the dampner just through friction on the trailing arm. Horrible ride quality.
Not criticizing what they do, just not my bag of apples.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Got my bar made to replace the upper leaf pack in my buggy. It’s just a 3/4” did with the center machine down and the one side is made the right size to go through the centre square. I just used a 80 grit flapper wheel on a side grinder to do it.
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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IF you are going to put front shocks on use plain old OEM oil filled.... Gas shocks are not ideal on front, I have them on mine and wished I had not succumbed the mania of "gas shocks" are the best when I did my build...
Many suggest you use plain old TIRED shock at best...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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how much will these front beams from a link pin twist?
on my buggy the left front caster is higher then the right.
i am a mechanic by trade and do alignments all the time. i always set the caster higher on the right to compensate for road crown.
if i get a set of caster shims and install one on the top bolt of the left and install one on the bottom bolt of the right it should move my caster to where i want it.
will the beam allow that much flex? |
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goodsofar
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2017
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| cdnltded wrote: |
Got my bar made to replace the upper leaf pack in my buggy. It’s just a 3/4” did with the center machine down and the one side is made the right size to go through the centre square. I just used a 80 grit flapper wheel on a side grinder to do it.
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Is that just mild steel from the hardware store? Or spring steel of some kind? |
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cdnltded
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2015
Posts: 381
Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| goodsofar wrote: |
| cdnltded wrote: |
Got my bar made to replace the upper leaf pack in my buggy. It’s just a 3/4” did with the center machine down and the one side is made the right size to go through the centre square. I just used a 80 grit flapper wheel on a side grinder to do it.
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Is that just mild steel from the hardware store? Or spring steel of some kind? |
just mild steel |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12686
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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This very interesting thread seems to have gone stagnant. I am very interested in doing something of the sort soon myself.
I would like this given some thought, if one was to take a pipe cutter to the center anchor on one of the spring tubes that would allow that spring pack to float freely in rotation giving the same effect as a through rod. Now we would have interrupted the strength of that tube so one could sleeve it on the outside so that it overlaps the cut, weld it to the outside tubes allowing the center to rotate inside the sleeve. The next step would be to weld 2 pieces of flat bar across the 2 sleeves to tie the severed tube together.
I'm thinking this could all be done externally without taking the whole suspension apart if the sleeves were installed split and then welded.
Thoughts? |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Removing spring pack and putting through rod is lot simpler than doing any cutting and sleeving of center section, and if you don't like concept down the road its a lot simpler to revert back to original...
For me the simplest thing was a new set of beams with factory assembled adjusters and this allows infinite adjustment, and I can even put it back to "stock" height if I want...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12686
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Removing spring pack and putting through rod is lot simpler than doing any cutting and sleeving of center section, and if you don't like concept down the road its a lot simpler to revert back to original...
For me the simplest thing was a new set of beams with factory assembled adjusters and this allows infinite adjustment, and I can even put it back to "stock" height if I want...
Dale |
Define simpler please. I just looked up the prices and a cheap Chinese one is $400 and a quality German made one is $800, then there is the labor to dissassemble the old one, put all the parts into the new one and pay for a wheel alignment.
Your other suggestion is a through rod which needs to be hand made along with locating spacers (or does some one sell them?) and then you disassemble the beam and put it in.
Both these are viable options for sure but the new beam one does not address the need for softer springs, it only changes the ride height.
What I am thinking of doing would just involve pulling the beam out complete, 2 cuts in the center, weld on the sleeve with a grease nipple and put it back in. Simple and cheap - no? |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Thru Rods are cheap to purchase and readily available. Just remove the top or bottom arms of your pleasure, pull the spring pack out, slide the trhu rod into place, install arms and tighten thru rod end nuts.
No welding, no cutting a beam, do not have to take the beam off of the buggy, (which for me, means pulling the dash out, windshield off and the hood off).
http://www.mooreparts.com/empi-17-2545-front-trail...40-5-pair/
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12686
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
Thru Rods are cheap to purchase and readily available. Just remove the top or bottom arms of your pleasure, pull the spring pack out, slide the trhu rod into place, install arms and tighten thru rod end nuts.
No welding, no cutting a beam, do not have to take the beam off of the buggy, (which for me, means pulling the dash out, windshield off and the hood off).
http://www.mooreparts.com/empi-17-2545-front-trail...40-5-pair/ |
Thanks for that link!
That was not quite what I pictured at all. I was picturing a rod with square ends to fit into the trailing arms and would double as an anti sway bar. There is no manual or video for it on the site but if I get the picture right it goes all the way through both control arms and the collar goes in place of the dust caps on the outside of the control arms. This rod I believe would rotate independently of the two control arms and the center of the beam.
If that is the case could you not just remove the dust caps and 3 set screws and drive the spring leaves out and the rod in without removing anything more?
I see they sell them only in pairs but the price is cheap enough it wouldn't matter. I would be tempted to try one on my sand rail too. It has only about 200 pounds on the front axle and the suspension rarely moves. |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| oprn wrote: |
That was not quite what I pictured at all. I was picturing a rod with square ends to fit into the trailing arms and would double as an anti sway bar. There is no manual or video for it on the site but if I get the picture right it goes all the way through both control arms and the collar goes in place of the dust caps on the outside of the control arms. This rod I believe would rotate independently of the two control arms and the center of the beam.
If that is the case could you not just remove the dust caps and 3 set screws and drive the spring leaves out and the rod in without removing anything more?
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The thru rods with the square ends are sway bars used by the FV racing guys. Will work, but will also make your front end very harsh on rough roads. Spring rate will be less, (missing one spring pack) but not much articulation can be had with this style set up resulting in the harsh ride over uneven roads.
Yes. Just that simple for a thru rod that is not a sway bar.
Same place also sells the end clamp/nuts for a cheap price. The thread on like a bolt to get adjustment, then clamp like a spindle nut to stay secure in adjustment.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12686
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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My front end is very harsh now on rough roads.
So the FV rods are too stiff then. I assuming you mean when only one wheel drops or hits a bump. I wonder what the spring pack by itself without the center anchor would be like? In that case on a one wheel bump that wheel will see full spring rate from one spring pack and 1/2 the normal spring stiffness from the second one. In other words in a two wheel bump the wheel travel would be 200% of normal but in a one wheel bump it would be 150% of normal.
With the through rod it would be 200% wheel travel in both cases.
I have also wondered if when using the through rod I would have to increase the sway bar size to maintain the same body lean in a corner? My gut feeling is that a softer spring rate will lead to poorer cornering. One could add a sway bar to the rear to compensate but that will change the understeer/over steer characteristics of the car... possibly for the better... possibly for the worse... |
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