| Author |
Message |
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
 |
|
Been trying to figure this out, wondering what others have found.
What did VW use in the seam between the cowl panel, and front quarter panel?
I circled the area I mean in the attached picture
I thought maybe it was leaded, but I took apart a junk section I have, & whatever was in the seam was brass colored instead of silver.
Also, map gas heat didn’t seem to touch it to melt it....
I did it outside, with a respirator in case it is lead.
I’ll be doing a front quarter replacement, and wasn’t sure how I wanted to handle that seam. Lead, or maybe silicone bronze tig braze it?
I appreciate any advice if you’ve messed with that seam before!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
Here’s a YouTube video I found using silicone bronze filler to tig into a seam.
Skip to about 5 minute point of video to see that. Was wondering if this might be an option?
Link
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
calo1956
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2011
Posts: 700
Location: long Island new york
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| That looks like such a better idea for all the seams i have on my Vanagon. Too bad all i have is a MIG... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vwkirb
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 812
Location: Athens, GA
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| calo1956 wrote: |
| That looks like such a better idea for all the seams i have on my Vanagon. Too bad all i have is a MIG... |
i do believe there is such a process as mig brazing! look into it.
_________________
Andrew Kirby |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| vwkirb wrote: |
| calo1956 wrote: |
| That looks like such a better idea for all the seams i have on my Vanagon. Too bad all i have is a MIG... |
i do believe there is such a process as mig brazing! look into it. |
You’re right, there is! I am not at all familiar with it, but here’s a pretty good link with lots of info:
https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/silicon-bronze-mig-brazing-basics
I may go the silicon bronze route with my tig, would love to hear any feedback from people that have done it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| dodgerodder wrote: |
Been trying to figure this out, wondering what others have found.
What did VW use in the seam between the cowl panel, and front quarter panel?
|
I replaced the entire front clip on an early '62 by separating the drip rails.
What I found in that area was;
Several spot welds at the forward area . . . under the weather-strip.
Possibly a weld in the drip rail.
The outer seam filled by brazing.
I duplicated what was done from the factory as closely as I could using the equipment at hand . . . plug welds with MIG at the front, and oxy/acetylene torch to braze the seam . . . turned out nice.
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
| dodgerodder wrote: |
Been trying to figure this out, wondering what others have found.
What did VW use in the seam between the cowl panel, and front quarter panel?
|
I replaced the entire front clip on an early '62 by separating the drip rails.
What I found in that area was;
Several spot welds at the forward area . . . under the weather-strip.
Possibly a weld in the drip rail.
The outer seam filled by brazing.
I duplicated what was done from the factory as closely as I could using the equipment at hand . . . plug welds with MIG at the front, and oxy/acetylene torch to braze the seam . . . turned out nice. |
That sounds like a great way to do it, thanks for the feedback!
I have never brazed, I need to figure out if I am going to use oxy, or tig braze...
What did you use for filler on yours?
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
Not sure what you mean by filler... This is what I used for brazing the seam.
A small Jewelers file was used to smooth it out before spraying primer.
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| Quote: |
I replaced the entire front clip on an early '62 by separating the drip rails.
What I found in that area was;
Several spot welds at the forward area . . . under the weather-strip.
Possibly a weld in the drip rail.
The outer seam filled by brazing.
|
Did you un braze the the seam? I may have to do the same type of repair but I'm hesitant to heat up that area in fear of warp-age.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
Not sure what you mean by filler... This is what I used for brazing the seam.
A small Jewelers file was used to smooth it out before spraying primer.
|
That’s what I meant, wasn’t sure what the heck it was called haha
Oh, I see that brazing rod is flux coated. I’m assuming no other flux is needed?
Pretty much heat the clean seam, get the flux melted first, and flow the silicon bronze in?
The one thing I like about the brazing (if I understand it right) is that it would go up into the seam, to really seal the seam from corrosion?
I feel that torch brazing may get the silicon bronze further into the seam than tig brazing
I think this is similar to what vw did, because the scrap panel I took apart had gold colored stuff in that seam
I cannot thank you enough for the help! I really need to practice this, with torch & tig to see how it works! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
You can think of brazing almost like very high temperature soldering . . . at least as far as preparation is concerned. Sanding or a wire brush to remove all contamination... Then a tight fitting joint... And the bronze flows into that seem by capillary action.... It's pretty cool!
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
Un brazing that seam is going to destroy the paint on the inside of the windshield pillar that you will not be able to get to.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Did you un braze the the seam? I may have to do the same type of repair but I'm hesitant to heat up that area in fear of warp-age. |
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Un brazing that seam is going to destroy the paint on the inside of the windshield pillar that you will not be able to get to. |
I did NOT heat the seam to separate it.
My quarter panels were bad (not salvageable), so . . . I opened the drip rails from the bottom of the pillar and up to a point just above the cowl/quarter seam.
I drilled out 2 million spot welds, and cut the quarter panels off right BELOW the brazed seam to remove the main portion of the quarters.
I then used an angle grinder to grind away the small piece of the quarter panel from the bottom-side of the cowl.
It was slow going . . . working kinda upside down to be able to see the bottom of the cowl . . . grinding very carefully to go through ONLY the remaining quarter panel flange and NOT too much of the layer of braze.
I knew that the metal in the factory seam would be nice clean steel that will accept new braze.
Not difficult, but time consuming!
I did have the wiring harness disconnected, so I was able to pull it back into the roof and out of harm way .
I tied bailing wire to the end of the harness so it was easy to pull back into the trunk when I finished the bodywork.
A tip . . . a heat gun will soften the wiring harness so it will be flexible again!
The brazing (when done with a oxy/acetylene torch) will not warp the area of the seam, nor burn the paint inside the pillar.
With the wiring out of the way, you can spray what you need to with a touch-up gun.
If you want to paint further up inside, get a cheap air brush and you can get way up there!
BTW . . . I had the doors off for most of the job . . . reinstalled them after I had the quarters back into the drip rails, set the door gaps, then welded the quarters and brazed the seam.
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Did you un braze the the seam? I may have to do the same type of repair but I'm hesitant to heat up that area in fear of warp-age. |
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Un brazing that seam is going to destroy the paint on the inside of the windshield pillar that you will not be able to get to. |
I did NOT heat the seam to separate it.
My quarter panels were bad (not salvageable), so . . . I opened the drip rails from the bottom of the pillar and up to a point just above the cowl/quarter seam.
I drilled out 2 million spot welds, and cut the quarter panels off right BELOW the brazed seam to remove the main portion of the quarters.
I then used an angle grinder to grind away the small piece of the quarter panel from the bottom-side of the cowl.
It was slow going . . . working kinda upside down to be able to see the bottom of the cowl . . . grinding very carefully to go through ONLY the remaining quarter panel flange and NOT too much of the layer of braze.
I knew that the metal in the factory seam would be nice clean steel that will accept new braze.
Not difficult, but time consuming!
I did have the wiring harness disconnected, so I was able to pull it back into the roof and out of harm way .
I tied bailing wire to the end of the harness so it was easy to pull back into the trunk when I finished the bodywork.
A tip . . . a heat gun will soften the wiring harness so it will be flexible again!
The brazing (when done with a oxy/acetylene torch) will not warp the area of the seam, nor burn the paint inside the pillar.
With the wiring out of the way, you can spray what you need to with a touch-up gun.
If you want to paint further up inside, get a cheap air brush and you can get way up there!
BTW . . . I had the doors off for most of the job . . . reinstalled them after I had the quarters back into the drip rails, set the door gaps, then welded the quarters and brazed the seam. |
Great description of the process!!
You are 200% correct, working upside down under the cowl seam grinding carefully sucks!
But, you bring up a great point I was wondering about. I totally understand the seam must be super clean, to get the braze to take.
But I feel it would be impossible to get 100% of the old braze off.
It sounds like the seam will still take new braze if there is some old (but clean) braze remaining?
Thanks so much for the time you’ve spent explaining & answering questions , I really appreciate |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| dodgerodder wrote: |
But I feel it would be impossible to get 100% of the old braze off.
It sounds like the seam will still take new braze if there is some old (but clean) braze remaining?
|
Yes, I think you are correct!
Again . . . it would be like a solder joint . . . The steel will be "tinned" and the new brazing rod/flux will flow into any remaining brazing material provided the new & old alloys are compatible.
I tried to grind until I just broke through the old braze while trying to avoid removing steel from the cowl.
FWIW . . . I make use of my Dremel Tool at times for the purpose of "fine tuning" . . . after doing the heavy stuff with my angle grinder! 
Doing those seams was one of those times!
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jason
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3444
Location: Garage
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| Mine was spot welded, brazed by drip rail and welded on inside |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dodgerodder
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2010
Posts: 170
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| jason wrote: |
| Mine was spot welded, brazed by drip rail and welded on inside |
Yes, I did find a spot weld on the inside, at the rear, where it meets the drip rail
I haven’t found any duct tape yet haha
_________________
My 66’ build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699235 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
w2vy
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2016
Posts: 122
Location: Tampa, FL
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RLFD213
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Front quarter panel / cowl seam question |
|
|
| You could also use panel bond on the channel so you don’t worry about warping the panels or ruining paint. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
