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need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

During the wintertime I had my 084 transmission out of the Golf Mk2 '84 and did replace the clutch and all the seals and did fix a lot of things on the engine.

When I reach 120 kph, the whole front end starts to shake pretty bad. The car did never run great till then, so I did not realized this problem before I did fix all the little things during wintertime.
The vibration is engine rpm related, but not the engine itself.

When I did replace the seal under the throw-out bearing, I realized, that the transmission drive shaft had excessive play (1mm side to side), but I could not find any information about that in my blue VW workshop manual about that transmission, so I did keep it like it is.

I'm sure that the roller bearing (084 311 123 K) on the drive shaft behind the throw-out bearing is the culprit for the vibrations.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
(image borrowed from http://www.vag24.de ):

How much play should this bearing have?
Does the bearing ride directly on the shaft and could this also be damaged?
What else to look for, when I pull the transmission and disassemble it to change the bearing? I have no fear doing this and will buy tools if necessary.
085 is out of the question.
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Last edited by mr. lang on Thu May 03, 2018 12:08 am; edited 4 times in total
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

If the bearings are bad enough to cause a vibration, it would also make a hell of a lot of noise. Since this wasn't a problem before the work that you did, I would lean more towards an error in re-assembly. Check timing marks to see if the flywheel was installed incorrectly (120* or 240* off, there are guide pins that can cause misalignment & damage to the pressure plate if installed incorrectly.). If those are correct, you might have crushed or misplaced the guide sleeves that ensure alignment between the engine block & transmission, if these are missing/damaged, the input shaft & the crankshaft will not line up correctly causing the clutch to shift off center & cause vibration.
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

TDCTDI thank you very much for your answer!

Maybe I was not clear, but there hasn't been a problem before, because i was not able to rev that engine up that high. So it could have been like this also before I did fix things.

And it makes a hell of a lot of noise, which does start right when the vibration does start
4th gear (also in 1st to 3rd gear, but at lower speeds, but the same rpm):
0kph ... 120kph (4000rpm): sssssssssss (sounds like a bee flying from flower to flower, no evidence of any problems)
120kph (4000rpm) ... 125kph (4200rpm): rrrrrrrrr (vibration and rrr-sound does start)
125kph (4200rpm) and up: RRRRRRRRRR (very load and feels like sitting on a impact drill)

The engine itself (HK 1300 engine) can be reved up to 6500rpm without any vibrations in neutral or with the clutch pressed.
So the flywheel or pressure plate could not be the problem, I think.

I will search for the pictures I made during assembly, maybe you can see any mistakes i made.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

ok... ahhh what is this tranny?? small block 4 speed? never seen a small block in a mk2.. pics please

speed but not rpm related....

how did the inner cv joints look for grease?? a dry/rustycolored ball will do that... i think id look at things like axles vs tranny... only cause 2000 rpm is still 2000 rpm in any gear... so is 4000... now do not get me wrong.. a bad ring/pinion will do that.. but they tend to have a whirlll sound that changes on vs off power.. but the main shaft/clutch... its engine rpm and switching thru the gears will make same noise/issue at same rpm in any gear
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

Smile well yes, small block EA111 with small 084 4-speed transmission, also found in the Polo. In Germany not that uncommon in the Golf mk2.
While I have a 1300 cm³ engine, there were also 1000 and 900 cm³ engines available.

cv joints are new SKF, installed the same time with the clutch. Fresh grease everywhere.

this (same noise at same 4000 rpm in any gear):
Quote:
but the main shaft/clutch... its engine rpm and switching thru the gears will make same noise/issue at same rpm in any gear

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Last edited by mr. lang on Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

before:
both guide sleeves visible
the two pins to the left (front of car). I later rotated the crank 90° to clear the valves when I did replace the cambelt
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

after:
flywheel can only be placed in one position.
I checked wobble with a dial gauge which was 0.06mm (0.0024")
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

new LUK parts
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

all the seals and throw out bearing replaced
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

only picture I currently have with transmission installed in the car
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 transmission advice Reply with quote

Sorry, cant help, that beast doesn't exist here.

Have you tried sourcing a used unit? It'll probably be cheaper than getting parts from the dealer if they're even able to get them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice Reply with quote

Thanks TDCTDI.

all the necessary parts would be available new from vw classic parts.
I think I will dive into that und first remove the gearbox to further inspect the bearing. When I remove the input shaft seal, I can take a look on the inner run-surface and the barrels of the bearing. Any pitting should be visible this way.

I would like to keep the original gearbox because the car is in very original condition.
But I have no problems salvaging a used unit for the parts I will need if not available elsewhere. Used gearboxes will cost up to $250, not that expensive.
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE full teardown Reply with quote

After driving for so long with this issue and the engine recently starting to run on his last legs, I started a full tear-down.

I collected all parts (gaskets) necessary, to completely disassemble the gearbox and the engine and put it back together.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


During my first session, I only unrigged all the external parts like air cleaner, ignition, alternator and exhaust manifold and did a leak down test with a self-made leak down tester:
cylinder #2 up to #4 all -10%, except #1, which had -25%. All air did escape through the engine ventilation.
(note to myself: don't remove distributor during test, otherwise oil will shoot out of camshaft oil drain hole)
Stupidly I did forget to take my camera with me to take some pictures, but they will follow.
EDIT: here they are:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Quick info about the drivetrain (model year '84, except otherwise noted):
stock HK 1.3 liter engine of type EA111 "small block" having 54 bhp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_discontinued_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines#1.3_R4_40-55kW
stock 2E3 carburetor
model year '85 SVDA 009 distributor (couldn't resist, it's not the beetle distributor, but the waterpumper 0 231 191 009 distributor (VW 052 905 205 M))
model year '85 4 speed 084 gearbox
everything else stock

engine after first session
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


EDIT: added images
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

During the second session, I stripped all parts off the cylinder head, like fuel pump, carburetor, intake manifold, timing belt, water pump and camshaft.
There was water everywhere, but I think I got most out of the engine. More than 5 liter.
I did use a syringe to suck the water into a hose and then did let gravity do it's work into a canister. Worked like a charm.

Water does have the green Glysantin touch, but also a dark additional tint. Could be a disintegrating hose or maybe oil. How can I check this?
Hose would be possible, because i did replace one brittle hose before.

Seal surface on intake manifold does look like it had an air leak.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Engine as it sits right now:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Carburetor adapter has seen better days. Will be replaced by NOS one

Not so bad from the top:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But the bottom does show how brittle (and leaky) the material is:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To remove the valve springs I set the cylinder under pressure (with the hose (VW 653/3) from the leak down tester) and used tool VW 2001/1 to compress the springs.
First I was curious, but at the end it did work like a charm.
I secured the valves with zipties.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All the little pieces
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After the head was removed I had a surprise moment: cross hatch still visible. I expected worse, since engine has ~ 100k miles.
All cylinders do look the same.
Stock size pistons and it seems, that cylinder head gasket is not so fresh anymore between cylinder #1 and #2, and #2 and #3.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


better be seen without the flash:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

I've removed the valves and gave them a visual investigation.
Nothing measured jet, will do, when all parts are thoroughly cleaned.

This is my first waterpumper engine teardown and I don't know exactly how to interpret what I see.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cylinder #1
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


after a quick clean up:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cleaned intake valve #1 compared to not cleaned #2
valves did look almost the same before
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cleaned exhaust valve #1 compared to not cleaned #2
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sorry for the crappy pictures. During the week, I can only swing wrenches late at night, so the lighting is not as perfect as probably necessary.


All valves have a lot of carbon residues and buildup. I guess from leaky valve stem seal.
But what are those dark residues I see, after I cleaned the valves and valve seats ? Is this lead fouling ? Rust ?
They still feel smooth (fingernail test), no holes or edges or the like.
Can I reuse the valves or are they junk?

I wonder, if i did anything wrong during leak down test, but the valves did stand the pressure. Not even a touch of a breeze. Maybe it just looks worse than it is.

What I would do, if nobody has any concerns:
well, first clean all the parts and then measure valves and guides.
Based on that replace parts (valve guides and intake valves).
Replace exhaust valves no matter if they are in spec or not.

I'm thankful for any help !
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

back to your original driveline vibration....had an issue with my sons jetta years ago....replaced the right side axle with a new one...probably chinese....instead of being larger in diameter the axle shaft was the same diameter as the left side...i then proceded to replace every wheel bearing in the car trying to make the "obviously bad wheel bearing " noise go away....the skinny shaft set up some sort of harmonic vibration in the car...i'll never buy a new axle assembly again....my wife had to bring the axle on a plane from north carolina to new york so we could return it
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

I really have no clue, what the culprit is, but I hope to find out.

I think it's not after the gearbox, because it is based on engine rpm.
But I do not rule out the possibilities of that.
My stock driveshafts can be fixed and I will do so after the rest (engine, gearbox) is done.

Hopefully the culprit will be obviously like a dead bearing or roller bearing that I can wear with a necklace after that task.





About the current process:
Not much to report lately, because I'm in the middle of of the boring but necessary process of cleaning all the cylinder head parts.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Finished the cleaning process (forgot camera in the shop, so pictures will follow later)

All parts turned out great.

All valves and guides are well within tilt clearance.
intake max 1.0mm: #1 0.39mm, #2 0.38mm, #3 0.32mm, #4 0.37mm
exhaust max 1.5mm: #1 0.63mm, #2 0.45mm, #3 0.46mm, #4 0.54mm

Valve stems do also not look too bad:
nominal diameter intake 7.96mm: #1 -0.01mm, #2 -0.01mm, #3 -0.01mm, #4 -0.02mm
nominal diameter exhaust 7.94mm: #1 -0.00mm, #2 -0.00mm, #3 -0.00mm, #4 -0.00mm

But I'm still not happy, because a few of the valves are slightly bend:
intake: #1 0.015mm, #2 0.00mm, #3 0.04mm, #4 0.005
exhaust: #1 0.00mm, #2 0.035mm, #3 0.015mm, #4 0.02mm
wobble measurement would be double that values.
intake #3 and exhaust #2 are the worst.

Valve seats have excessive wear and dark spots, which turned out to be imprints.
The wear is also not centered, but tilted to one side. Lead free fuel problem maybe.

Because of the bend valves and because of the excessive valve seat wear, I decided to visit a specialist and let him take a look on it. I have the tools, but I think I can't handle that excessive wear.
Maybe I let him change the valve seats to lead free versions too.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

2E3 carburetor before:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I bought the fuel lines for this car at the local VW dealer in hopes that it will be premium quality. I paid premium prices but got junk.
After 14 month it looks like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The different one I put in my split bus years ago looks like new and will then be used in the Golf also.

carburetor as it sits right now, everything cleaned:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

carb is almost done (hoses still missing and adjustments not done jet)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The 2E3 does look super complicated compared to the PICT.
The cold start mechanism on the left side in the pic can be challenging, but the rest is as simple as the beetle carburetor.
The second throttle is vacuum operated and controlled by the first throttle.

After I disassembled the carb, I went on a vacation and when I started working on it again, I realized, that all the diaphragms were shot. They did dry out within a few days.
If you will freshen up your carb, keep the diaphragms covered in gasoline or hurry up or you will need a aftermarket replacement kit


Is my thread boring ?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

In the 4th session I removed the pistons. Went smooth except for one screw of the oil pan, where I had to remove the right driveshaft. Has to come out anyway to remove the transmission.

Engine as it sits:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All 4 Pistons look identical, having the same wear pattern:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


top reads 74.985mm, 09 07 (maybe the production date ?), arrow does point to cambelt with a 31 underneath, KSR (Kolbenschmidt), VIII
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


one site perfect (like new Smile )
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


other site is junk Sad (picture taken after a quick clean up):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I did learn from this document
https://www.ms-motorservice.com/fileadmin/media/MA..._51730.pdf
(page 20 and page 72 fits the best) that the engine did suffer fuel flooding in one time of it's life.
My pistons seems to show the typical wear pattern.
Bad news is that the piston skirt damage got imprinted into the cylinder causing grooves and that's where the blowby was coming from.
The dark spot above the piston rings seem to be from the oil entering the combustion chamber from the bottom through the grooves.
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