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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:46 am Post subject: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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In 5 days we leave for a 6 week road trip...
From last year [replacing head gasket 1,6 TD] I still didn't do the FINAL head bolts tightening... now trying to do that but one valve cover stud is totally stripped - I tried everything but it is just spinning so I can't get the valve cover off.
The valve cover is not leaking nor is the head gasket (see pics), so I wonder if it is OK just to leave everything alone for the time being?
On the other hand it is not really good that I can not open the valve cover... any suggestions on how I can get that stripped stud out?
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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I would check the manual. When the 1.6 diesel came out, vw started using TTY stretch bolts that after final torque were done and did not require retorqing. So you should be good to take your trip.
To properly retorque a bolt, it should be loosened and retorqued. This could actually introduce a leak that you don't have now. TTY head bolts should not be reused.
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djkeev
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crazyvwvanman
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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The various factory books I have for the 1.6D and 1.6TD say that after 1000 miles to tighten the head bolts in sequence an additional 1/4 turn. When you buy a new VW 1.6 diesel headgasket the package usually has recommended torque procedures for THAT gasket. I follow those if provided. The Vanagon Bentley on page 15.9 has the diesel head bolt torque and says after about 1000 miles to add 1/4 turn (90 degrees) without loosening and without interruption. Without interruption means each must be turned 1/4 turn in a single motion.
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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Manual says the hex type bolts require loosening, then re-torquing... but the star-type only require another 90* continuous turn. I now managed about an 1/8 additional turn and did it as 'continuous' as I could manage, but I think not 'perfectly'. Sometimes when torquing these bolts it kind of momentarily "gives" a bit, but I know these bolts are designed to 'de-form' so that is probably what is happening. So I think I'm good to go - especially since it wasn't leaking anyway.
I managed to get the stripped valve cover stud out by prying with a huge screw driver while turning the nut... it managed to come out, slowly. After that I carefully ran the damaged stud thru a tap to re-cut the threads - and I threw away to mangled nut... seems now all good as new. 
Probably all of that was unnecessary, but I feel it is good to get a bit dirty with my engine and tools before a big trip > it gets me familiar with everything again
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Alan Brase
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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My guess is that the threads are stripped from the nut. Take an old straight blade screwdriver and grind into a chisel. (slowly, keeping it from getting red hot will keep it harder, btw)
Now drive the chisel under the edge of the nut and try to unscrew it. Keep putting more outward pressure on the nut as you turn. Very likely it will get into better threads after a turn or two and com off on its own after that.
Changing the stud would be best, but simply a new nut and a couple washers will let you get by till a better time.
Sometimes a dikes, (diagonal wire cutters) will work well to put the upward pressure, if you have room to get them in there.
Yeah what "Crazyvanman" says about the gasket. Re torque according to the gasket manufacturer's specs.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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Is there any possibility that only turning 1/8 turn instead of 1/4 turn might cause a problem? Turning was quite well all in one motion. I could have done it better but I was afraid that socket might come off of the bolt head so I only could torque with one arm > man those bolts are tight. I have a cheater bar which would have helped a LOT but it is an old pipe with rust inside and I was concerned that some flakes of rust might crumble off and fall right into the head > that would suck!
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dobryan
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Alan Brase
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Is there any possibility that only turning 1/8 turn instead of 1/4 turn might cause a problem? Turning was quite well all in one motion. I could have done it better but I was afraid that socket might come off of the bolt head so I only could torque with one arm > man those bolts are tight. I have a cheater bar which would have helped a LOT but it is an old pipe with rust inside and I was concerned that some flakes of rust might crumble off and fall right into the head > that would suck! |
It bothers me a bit that you said the socket might come off the bolt head? These SHOULD be socket head XZN (12mm?) bolts. the socket is a bit inserted and there is NO likelihood it will slip. If you do not have socket head bolts, I think the 1/4 turns will not give the right torque.
WRT the rust inside the cheater bar, well, good thinking. So, knock the rust out of the pipe. Air blow gun will clean the cheater pipe out. Then duct tape.
Not sure whether the bolts know 1/4 turn from two 1/8 turns. I have reused these stretch bolts more than once and never found the clamping to vary. I bet you could turn them 10 full turns before they yielded.
Not saying to use them on 10 rebuilds, but saying they are not so delicate or fussy.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
| epowell wrote: |
| Is there any possibility that only turning 1/8 turn instead of 1/4 turn might cause a problem? Turning was quite well all in one motion. I could have done it better but I was afraid that socket might come off of the bolt head so I only could torque with one arm > man those bolts are tight. I have a cheater bar which would have helped a LOT but it is an old pipe with rust inside and I was concerned that some flakes of rust might crumble off and fall right into the head > that would suck! |
It bothers me a bit that you said the socket might come off the bolt head? These SHOULD be socket head XZN (12mm?) bolts. the socket is a bit inserted and there is NO likelihood it will slip. If you do not have socket head bolts, I think the 1/4 turns will not give the right torque.
WRT the rust inside the cheater bar, well, good thinking. So, knock the rust out of the pipe. Air blow gun will clean the cheater pipe out. Then duct tape.
Not sure whether the bolts know 1/4 turn from two 1/8 turns. I have reused these stretch bolts more than once and never found the clamping to vary. I bet you could turn them 10 full turns before they yielded.
Not saying to use them on 10 rebuilds, but saying they are not so delicate or fussy.
Al |
Since I have so little experience with such things, I feel the need to risk looking like a fool and end up asking silly questions..... it helps me hearing that you have reused them successfully, and that they are really not "so fussy"!
Your ideas about the cheater bar are very good...
Finally, yes when I got around to just reefing on the that long wrench I was amazing at how well the socket stayed on the bolt, finally I see that I could have just pulled with both arms from the get go.
Thanks for taking the time to answer a silly question > but when you are new to this stuff you still never know which things are fussy and which things are not. Only way to find out is to ask 
| dobryan wrote: |
Ed I do not know the technical answer to your question but if it was not giving any problems and you did close to the final torque I would go on vacation and worry more that I might run out of beer....
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Alan Brase
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Alan Brase wrote: |
| epowell wrote: |
| Is there any possibility that only turning 1/8 turn instead of 1/4 turn might cause a problem? Turning was quite well all in one motion. I could have done it better but I was afraid that socket might come off of the bolt head so I only could torque with one arm > man those bolts are tight. I have a cheater bar which would have helped a LOT but it is an old pipe with rust inside and I was concerned that some flakes of rust might crumble off and fall right into the head > that would suck! |
It bothers me a bit that you said the socket might come off the bolt head? These SHOULD be socket head XZN (12mm?) bolts. the socket is a bit inserted and there is NO likelihood it will slip. If you do not have socket head bolts, I think the 1/4 turns will not give the right torque.
WRT the rust inside the cheater bar, well, good thinking. So, knock the rust out of the pipe. Air blow gun will clean the cheater pipe out. Then duct tape.
Not sure whether the bolts know 1/4 turn from two 1/8 turns. I have reused these stretch bolts more than once and never found the clamping to vary. I bet you could turn them 10 full turns before they yielded.
Not saying to use them on 10 rebuilds, but saying they are not so delicate or fussy.
Al |
Since I have so little experience with such things, I feel the need to risk looking like a fool and end up asking silly questions..... it helps me hearing that you have reused them successfully, and that they are really not "so fussy"!
Your ideas about the cheater bar are very good...
Finally, yes when I got around to just reefing on the that long wrench I was amazing at how well the socket stayed on the bolt, finally I see that I could have just pulled with both arms from the get go.
Thanks for taking the time to answer a silly question > but when you are new to this stuff you still never know which things are fussy and which things are not. Only way to find out is to ask
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The more you do, the better you get a FEEL for what is okay. You are a good student, Ed! Someday soon, you can pay it forward.
The more questions you ask the better. Sometimes we find we are talking about different things and more questions and pictures will get it straight!
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
The more you do, the better you get a FEEL for what is okay. You are a good student, Ed! Someday soon, you can pay it forward.
The more questions you ask the better. Sometimes we find we are talking about different things and more questions and pictures will get it straight! |
I know, I've been accused of over doing the pics and the questions but actually I don't care because this method has lead to success so far, and in fact the only times I have been lead astray are the times, as you say, when we were talking about different things, and I didn't ask enough questions until I FULLY understood the problem - for example:
1) I changed my entire cooling system because I thought I was over heating > only to finally find out that my temp gauge was reading wrong because of an electrical issue.
2) I changed my head gasket because I thought it was blown only to finally find out that my coolant expansion cap seal was missing!
...and many other such situations...
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Alan Brase
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Alan Brase wrote: |
The more you do, the better you get a FEEL for what is okay. You are a good student, Ed! Someday soon, you can pay it forward.
The more questions you ask the better. Sometimes we find we are talking about different things and more questions and pictures will get it straight! |
I know, I've been accused of over doing the pics and the questions but actually I don't care because this method has lead to success so far, and in fact the only times I have been lead astray are the times, as you say, when we were talking about different things, and I didn't ask enough questions until I FULLY understood the problem - for example:
1) I changed my entire cooling system because I thought I was over heating > only to finally find out that my temp gauge was reading wrong because of an electrical issue.
2) I changed my head gasket because I thought it was blown only to finally find out that my coolant expansion cap seal was missing!
...and many other such situations... |
Years ago I worked in a high perfomance machine shop. I basically worked retail parts sales, but they gave me keys and said it was okay if I used the machinery at night.
I observed a LOT of motor builds that customers spent a lot of money on and Even at my young age, really noticed an inverse relationship of money spent to satisfactory results with regard to street driven engines. (Race engines, not so much, but even then one has to consider return on investment.)
This was all good news to me, being a motivated tightwad.
Call me stubborn, but I'd be a little slow to replace everything to solve a problem. I'm Skeptical, but Colin the air cooled traveling mechanic already claims that name!
I love my Vanagons, but the idea of spending THOUSANDS on an engine conversion is out of my budget. I'll spend the thousands on my 1955 single cab or my 67 Porsche first.
And drive around on ragged body work on my Vanagon westy. Nice tires, tho.
BTW, are you still in Eastern Europe or now in Canada?
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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I have noticed exactly the same thing in guitar building and professional music recording. To build a great guitar you do NOT need expensive woods or tools. And to record great music you do NOT need ultra expensive equipment or any particularly special rooms....
I'm the same as you with regard to not wanting to spend.... on the other hand all of this work has been a great school for me, I didn't spend THAT much, and at least now many questionable corroded parts are out of my van.
I'm in Czech now.... hopefully heading down to Bosnia and Albania soon.
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightenin |
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| epowell wrote: |
1) I changed my entire cooling system because I thought I was over heating > only to finally find out that my temp gauge was reading wrong because of an electrical issue.
2) I changed my head gasket because I thought it was blown only to finally find out that my coolant expansion cap seal was missing! |
It is easy to be convinced to do these things based on many posts on here because for some people these are the default response to any cooling system issue without properly diagnosing the problem.
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epowell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightenin |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
It is easy to be convinced to do these things based on many posts on here because for some people these are the default response to any cooling system issue without properly diagnosing the problem. |
Yeah I have noticed that - and as I slowly slowly learn more and am less freaked out, I learn to even seriously question advice from even the most trusted mentors - cuz even they make errors on occasion.
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crazyvwvanman
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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In a pinch any manner of repair may be the expedient path. There is a lot more gray than there is black and white.
Yes, you can sometimes fail to follow proper procedures and survive. I've replaced dozens of head gaskets on VW diesel engines and sometimes reused the bolts, for various reasons. Given the choice I use new ones. Lots of VW diesel engines have had the gasket changed and then never received the final 1/4 turn on the bolts after 1000 miles. I would even suspect that to be the case more often than not, human nature being what it is.
I've met all kinds of vehicle owners in my time. Some seem to consider it a game to get by with spending the least amount of money possible today to keep the car going another few weeks or months. Others replace lots of parts that have plenty of life left, just to feel they have fixed it "right" and won't have any worries for a long time. I choose a middle path.
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epowell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Stripped valve cover stud + head bolts final tightening |
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Its comforting to here these words... I guess my winpy 1/8 turn after 1000KM is better than what most get. And if headbolts have been re-used with success then I'd be certain I am OK.
Anyway, Spring-time is my time of the year to be perfectionist with my van... then I forget about it for the rest of the time
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