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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Ray, it appears you are 100% correct. Even before I put the seat down, simply pressing the plastic cover over the wire results in a short.
As far as the male flag ring terminal, do you recommend anything specific? There are four wires that are connected to the battery there - two black and two red, and one of each are connected to the battery terminal. Do I need to get a new terminal/rewire the terminal? Or would it just suffice to have a couple smaller female terminals drop down from the battery so they lay flat by the side?
Thanks so much,
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
Ray, it appears you are 100% correct. Even before I put the seat down, simply pressing the plastic cover over the wire results in a short.
As far as the male flag ring terminal, do you recommend anything specific? There are four wires that are connected to the battery there - two black and two red, and one of each are connected to the battery terminal. Do I need to get a new terminal/rewire the terminal? Or would it just suffice to have a couple smaller female terminals drop down from the battery so they lay flat by the side?
Thanks so much,
Loren |
Ok....some details:
This is the type of terminal that came from the factory. It is called a ring spade terminal and several other things.
What you are looking for can be hard to find. It is either part # 113 971 935 which is 8.4mm wide or it is 113 971 935 A which is 6.4mm wide male terminal. Either way it needs to fit on an 8mm bolt.
The only reference I can find is VW heritage https://www.vwheritage.com/classic/?ClassicLookup=CONNECTOR
Simply put...it is a single wire version of the ring terminal that your injection ground wires connect on the engine case centerline on D-jet. In a pinch you can use one of those....and either leave the other two terminals bare...or shave them off with a Dremel or wire cutters.....like this.
And...its part number is very similar. The 3 position ring terminal is part # 311 971 935. If you do not have a spare you can buy one at German supply or a few other places.
OK...important wiring and crimping issues:
And this goes to anyone reading this thread:
QUIT USING THOSE DAMN HARDWARE STORE RED, YELLOW AND BLUE CRIMP ON CONNECTORS!!!!!!!
This type of crimper...is NOT what you need!
Those have NO PLACE in automotive systems, aircraft or transportation systems of any kind....and there has NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER...been an automobile produced with a that style of connector, that material of a connector or that style of crimp.
They are perfect for enclosed control panels on land based equipment...with low vibration and no real contact with moisture...but thats it.
In reality....the connector "type"...the meaning the metal and plating...would be just fine with automotive...but they have NO strain relief and the plastic ferrule around the connector barrel prevents proper open barrel style crimping.
You need to buy and use these kinds of terminals EVERYWHERE on your cars wiring harness....just like factory. And...you can get a ratcheting crimper tool like one of these with replaceable dies....for as low as $30-40. You need to get two sets of dies for about $20 each and you can crimp EVERY wire in your car including fuel injection terminals.
The type of CRIMP you used with that terminal is what caused the internal short in the wire in this thread!
The wire from the harness...had a factory female open barrel crimp connector...with a plastic outside insulator cover.... that plugged right onto this male spade.
And...this set up worked...but was problematic.
The open barrel type crimp prevented the type of short you are getting now.
And having this low profile connector set up...allowed using the plastic battery terminal cover with no issues.......but having a standard female terminal with "rolled" side edges means that it gets loose from vibration and movement.
Once that starts....about every 2 months you will get in the car...and buzz the key...and no start...because either the wire and female terminal fell off or is not making contact. So you end up lifting the seat and tightening the female terminal with pliers.
In a pinch...without that male flag ring connector...you can do this and it works perfectly
So you use an 8mm or 5/16" ring terminal on the battery post clamp connector.....that ring is crimped to a short pigtail of wire of the same gauge that is coming from the chassis harness....and that is crimped to a male spade....that has an external sheath to keep it from shorting...and that goes to the standard male connector on the chassis wire.
I will have to look...but at least one of my cars has been done this way and it may be my current one.
The type of connector cover is known as a "T-1" and is shown in the picture above stolen from a conversation thread back in 2007 courtesy of Jamesdogg.
I did not link to that thread...because there was too much "shite" in that thread...people "soldering" terminals.... ....NEVER solder a crimp terminal.
Soldering is FAR, FAR, FAR...inferior to crimping ...and soldering a properly crimped terminal actually RUINS the crimped connection.
All of them need to be open barrel crimps as shown above.
If you need to know where to get terminals and parts. Ray |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Amazing. This is like "Wiring for Dummies," and I can't wait to follow these instructions.
Thank you so much, Ray.
Loren
PS - I did NOT crimp the original ones _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
Amazing. This is like "Wiring for Dummies," and I can't wait to follow these instructions.
Thank you so much, Ray.
Loren
PS - I did NOT crimp the original ones |
Yep....I figured!
Ray |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Replaced the wire with appropriate ring/male/female, crimped using the appropriate crimper, then struggled for a bit getting the battery cover to sit nicely without shorting. I then moved the positive at a 45-degree angle to ensure all wires were clear of the cover, and the car runs more smoothly than before. Seems to not be shorting as it was previously when it would hiccup when I drove, which is a good thing.
Link
_________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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And thank you to everyone who chimed in on this one, too. It is sincerely appreciated and probably the only way I can actually own this car! (Because I am neither that smart, nor mechanically inclined enough).
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
.....Seems to not be shorting as it was previously when it would hiccup when I drove, which is a good thing.
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Glad you fixed it!
However I dont believe it was a short you had at the terminal shaft...I would call it a bad contact, a short would have caused smoke, but anyhow nice it is fixed now. 👍
Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Lars S wrote: |
lofoxx wrote: |
.....Seems to not be shorting as it was previously when it would hiccup when I drove, which is a good thing.
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Glad you fixed it!
However I dont believe it was a short you had at the terminal shaft...I would call it a bad contact, a short would have caused smoke, but anyhow nice it is fixed now. 👍
Lars S |
Yes!.....just a bad contact. That is acpretty big wire and it pulls wome decent current.....so if its not a really tight, clean crimp...it will get HOT.....like yours did.
Along those same lines....the whole injection system is sensitive to voltage STABILITY. One of the best things yoiu can do for your car....aside from building a whole nee EFI harnezs which I highly recommend.....its not that hard.......is to source 23 new female connectors and priperly replace and crimp all of the EFI component end connectors....especially...and if nothing else.....the female connectors on the ground ends under the manifold on the case centerline.
That....and clean and tighten all of the ground straps especially the one on tje transmission nose cone. Ray |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Thanks for the info, guys, and for the tip, Ray! Do you have a pic handy of what that looks like? I am looking through the Haynes manual but can't see specifics. Also, any idea of the gauge on those wires?
Thanks!
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
I'll measure it. I think I need to get it towed back to my place so I can work on it! |
Loren, did you ever measure the battery hight? Just curoius since it seems to interfear with the underside of the seat which it should not...
//Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
Thanks for the info, guys, and for the tip, Ray! Do you have a pic handy of what that looks like? I am looking through the Haynes manual but can't see specifics. Also, any idea of the gauge on those wires?
Thanks!
Loren |
Look just forward of your distributor. There is a three tab connector star just like the one I posted a picture of earlier in this thread. It is mounted to the case centerline by one of the bolts that holds the center manifold on. It has three pairs of two wires going to it. Ray |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Hey Ray and Lars, somehow I missed these last two posts... I will check on both counts and report back later.
Also, after I jumped the car, drove her around the block, went to start her the next day... nothing. I presume the battery's been depleted and doesn't have enough juice left to get it cranked.
Best option?
- Jump, then put on a trickle charger?
- Go back to AutoZone and have them charge/replace? (probably easiest, lol)
- Something better?
Gracias
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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lofoxx wrote: |
Hey Ray and Lars, somehow I missed these last two posts... I will check on both counts and report back later.
Also, after I jumped the car, drove her around the block, went to start her the next day... nothing. I presume the battery's been depleted and doesn't have enough juice left to get it cranked.
Best option?
- Jump, then put on a trickle charger?
- Go back to AutoZone and have them charge/replace? (probably easiest, lol)
- Something better?
Gracias
Loren |
You need to have two things done.
1. Pop the top if its not q maintenance free battery.....and you can buy a,hydrometer at NAPA for about $5 or less. Its a plastic tube with a suction bulb on it. It has several special pellets inside of it. One at a time, suck a little acid out of each cell and make note of where the balls float on the graduations on the tool.
This tells you if the acid in each cell is weak
2. Have the battery load tested at a FLAPS. This places a load or current draw across the battery and tells you if you have a weak or shorted cell.
What you are looking for is what is called a dead cell. This usually comes from either cracked plates inside of a cell....which drains power from the other cells until they are too weak to work. Or....it can be calcium bridging of cell plates causing an internal short.
A dead cell is very common. A common symptom of a dead cell is car that starts and runs. You can drive it around all day. Stop for an hour and it restarts just fine. Stop again for 10 minutes at a convenience store and its mysteriously dead .... no start....but jumps easily.
Ray |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:02 am Post subject: 72 VW 411 in NH (renamed) |
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Thank you, Ray. I really should have paid attention back in high school.
AutoZone's Duralast batteries have two-year warranties. I walked back in and got a new one at no charge. So I will install that today.
Lars, to answer you, the height is 175 mm (6 15/16 in). Is there a shorter recommended Group 42 battery?
Thanks!
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Thanks lofoxx, dimensions for that battery looks OK!
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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lofoxx Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015 Posts: 63 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Replacement Ground Wire |
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Lars S wrote: |
Thanks lofoxx, dimensions for that battery looks OK!
/Lars S |
Thanks Lars!
Loren _________________ 1972 VW 411 |
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