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Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5305 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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I say do whatever works best for you. If cutting an access hole is the ticket then party on. Done cleanly, who cares? _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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I cut a large access hole for in the luggage area partly for this reason. But also because the battery, oil cooler/filter are mounted under the luggage tray and I wanted to be able to easily access everything. Welded in supports for the cutout and it is fully bolted and sealed. The carpet will be easily removable to access it but with the carpet laid down you don't even know it is there.
I say do what works best for you but do it in a way that is not a molestation of the car, don't be one of those Previous Owners. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
never a need for an acess hole for me, plenty of engine removals and installs. The dog house fan shroud makes it even tighter, but still no need for a hole. Suggest you try different wrenches. There are captive bolt designs for the starter side upper bolt that dont require you to hold the bolt head.
I think a change in tools and method will work just fine 10s of millions of these engines removed and installed without an access hole needed.
If you do cut an access hole, seal it to prevent water ingress from road spray, else your luggage area and or floor pans may suffer rust.
Good Luck, Bug On! |
Just because you’ve always done things a certain way don’t discount a different way or idea. The access panel idea was VWs idea first and it probably was discontinued as a cost saving measure. Access panels, gaskets extra hardware and nutplates might cost more than a delete option and as you’ve stated those maintenance items can be reached from under the car.
I’ll give you another example. 1972 VW bus did not have engine access cover and getting to that 1700cc engine from above is a pain, the very next year guess what the door appeared and it opened. I’ve owned both years. |
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Wayne S. Johnson Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 1265 Location: GILROY, CA
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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iowa vw wrote: |
I cut a large access hole for in the luggage area partly for this reason. But also because the battery, oil cooler/filter are mounted under the luggage tray and I wanted to be able to easily access everything. Welded in supports for the cutout and it is fully bolted and sealed. The carpet will be easily removable to access it but with the carpet laid down you don't even know it is there.
I say do what works best for you but do it in a way that is not a molestation of the car, don't be one of those Previous Owners. |
Thanks for the pic. it's great to see how it can be done well. _________________ Additional products https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=Wayne+S.+Johnson
Additional products with Bluetooth http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2097231 |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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Umm, that's just a big f&*%in hole cut into the back of the car, you should ask for a pic of the finished product before saying "well done".
I will say that it's better than what someone did to my oval. Just don't use a hatchet, chisel, & a can opener.
_________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
Umm, that's just a big f&*%in hole cut into the back of the car, you should ask for a pic of the finished product before saying "well done".
I will say that it's better than what someone did to my oval. Just don't use a hatchet, chisel, & a can opener.
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The car isnt finished yet (paint next month, full body off restoration) but I will take more detailed pics next week when I'm changing out the transmission and adding some other modifications. I figured go big and do it right rather than a small hole that limits access. |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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i'm with you on an access.. do this to all my bugs - '54, '55s, '67, '63 and etc - is the access Mother VW stopped including after the mid 1952 models - once the square weave is rolled over the cover, no one is the wiser.
I try to be as neat as I can be and add a wooden lip to allow the cover to rest on it - for some unknown reasons, i have my critics... I think most critics are just frightened to be creative - GO FOR IT, like they did in the splits...
_________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
Not frightened by creativity, rather concerned about a hack solution to a non problem.
bug on. |
Still having problems embracing new ideas? Or bringing old ideas back? |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
bluebus86 wrote: |
Not frightened by creativity, rather concerned about a hack solution to a non problem.
bug on. |
Still having problems embracing new ideas? Or bringing old ideas back? |
You know, that worthless assed hatch cover from the '73 bus would be about perfect for that package shelf. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
bluebus86 wrote: |
Not frightened by creativity, rather concerned about a hack solution to a non problem.
bug on. |
Still having problems embracing new ideas? Or bringing old ideas back? |
There are as many new and old ideas as grains of sand on the beach, very few of the ideas are worth embracing.
So Im frightened by creativity, and refuse to embrace a new idea! Whow, thats a convincing argument for just about anything. I agree fully with that.
Hack away, but always Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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An access cover is a great idea, but you have to wonder why VW didn't incorporate it into the vast majority of its millions of Beetles. With all the mechanics wrenching on all those Beetles all those years, it seems evident to me that there was a simple way to get at those spots (as outlined in earlier posts on this thread) that outweighed the costs of providing an access hole.
Next time I have to get at that fourth engine bolt I will be trying that sit-on-the-fender technique. Sometimes it's not a matter of being resistant to new ideas, but just giving the situation a bit more thought as to why that "great" idea never was implemented. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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Spezialist Banned
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 1941
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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Cusser wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Allen head bolt with a long extension and a swivel allen drive.
Please don't hack the car. |
I just use long extensions and a socket from underneath, for me the trick is to move farther forward than one thinks and reach back, under 5 minutes.
When I replaced the transmission on my 1970 in April, I also used an allen bolt in this location, takes an 8mm allen socket now; got the allen bolt at Ace Hardware down the street. This is especially helpful if one has a late 1960s-1970 transmission that has the ridge for a D-headed bolt (for use with pre-1971 engine cases). |
About a 1000 times right. _________________
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panicman Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2011 Posts: 2290 Location: Canby, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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I would worry a bit about a large access cut in that location due to its proximity to the rear seatbelt mounting points. I think cutting there would REALLY weaken the area in the event of an accident. These cars are relatively dangerous as it is, and this would surely enhance risk. OP may not care about this- I get it. The splits didn’t have seatbelt mounts, but your later bug will.
That said, it could be reversed in the future, and it does seem a handy place for access, although I have never had a big fight with the bolt you’re referring to either. _________________ Plate of shrimp |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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panicman wrote: |
I would worry a bit about a large access cut in that location due to its proximity to the rear seatbelt mounting points. I think cutting there would REALLY weaken the area in the event of an accident. These cars are relatively dangerous as it is, and this would surely enhance risk. OP may not care about this- I get it. The splits didn’t have seatbelt mounts, but your later bug will. |
I agree that cutting a hole in the luggage area could potentially weaken the car, after all there isn't that much metal on these things to begin with. But that is why I said just don't do a hack job and do it right. I have build a framework that is welded to the underside of the luggage area for strength and support and the cover bolts to that. It also incorporates a seal for fumes, dirt, etc. For most cars I don't think and access hole is needed but it is convenient and for my application just makes everything easier.
There is nothing wrong with modifications as long as they don't destroy the integrity of the car or are hack jobs. I prefer mods that are also not really noticeable. |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4080
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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When I was doing it for a living it took me 15 minutes tops to remove an engine. Never had any problem getting the engine bolts and nuts out on early or late models. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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splitjunkie wrote: |
When I was doing it for a living it took me 15 minutes tops to remove an engine. Never had any problem getting the engine bolts and nuts out on early or late models. |
Same here, many a motor pull or install, nothung special needed, Standard Sears Craftsman hand tools, one or two combination wrench, a 1/2 in drive ratchet, possibly an extension and socket. even worked well when I put a doghouse shrouded motor in my 61 Bug, (a non doghouse motor is a piece of cake. )
It helps to undue the top bolts first, the lower keeping engine and tranny tight together so once loosened the top nuts spin off easy with no axial load on them. once loosened, with a squirt of oil they should finger spin off easily. thus when doing assembly, make sure the threads are not buggered up, and use antisieze, you will than yourself next time.
Been doing this since I was a kid, never felt the need for any access hole.
Dont really want to be inside the Bug cabin anyway with greasey hands, clothes, tools and parts, keep it clean inside.
Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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scdevon Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2017 Posts: 163 Location: Rockies
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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That's a lot of metal to hack out of a uni-body car even if a VW body is bolted to a pan "frame". Unitized construction relies on every piece of metal being in place and welded for strength. Floors pans, roofs, even bonded-in windshields in newer unibody cars count as part of the structural strength of the car. You'd be surprised how much a panel of sheet metal adds strength to a body especially in side collisions and rear end collisions in this case. Screwing the panel down with bolts, sheet metal screws, pop rivets, etc adds almost no strength. The small removable panels that VW used to use probably didn't weaken the area much, but VW even stopped doing it.
I cringe when people repair floor pans and rotten heater channel / rocker panels with roofing tar, canvas, fiberglass and Bondo. These people are in for an unpleasant surprise in a severe collision and these cars are pretty unsafe to begin with even when they were brand new. _________________ 1970 Beetle 1600 DP |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Access hole to reach the top engine bolt and starter. |
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Typical samba logic, split hairs, say anything to cast doubt but the fact remains. VW once had a service panel at this location and although I can only assume they did away with it as a cost saving measure. Final question to ponder, how many angels could fit on the head of a pin? 😁 |
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Seb67 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2003 Posts: 1003 Location: New England
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