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Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

here ya go

AFR map:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Spark map:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


note I'm pulling a bit less than 1 degree per psi of boost right now.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

My first thought was "yikes" when I saw all that stoich AFR, but then I remembered you have a buggy, and cooling isn't as big of an issue when you don't have an engine bay.
I think I would still lean it out a bit in the cruise area of you map and ad a bit of timing, like at least 32* total advance by 2500rpm, and then follow suit for the higher RPM areas. Maybe to around 16:1 in the +3000rpm and 60-85kpa areas.

Is your idle good there? I don't remember if you're running batch fire or sequential, but if you're batch, maybe fatten it up to ~13:1.

Remember, stoich (14.7:1) runs hottest. You want lower ~13:1 for accel and lower RPM areas, and then higher, like ~16:1 and more timing advance for cruise areas to keep the head temps lower.

Clone will comment though, and I know he targets the stoich areas to keep his buggy from staying too cool.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

thanks for the input, heat has not been an issue (yet) -- in fact I haven't been able to get my oil temp over 175 yet.

the squishies with the the extra air cooling because its open, the thing looses heat super quick at idle.

I'm running full sequential spark and fuel, so the idle seems fine at the moment targeting 14.7

my only heat issue right now is my IAT's are reaching 130f+ when i start beating on it. But I'm a ways away from pushing more than the 7lb in it
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

theDrew wrote:
thanks for the input, heat has not been an issue (yet) -- in fact I haven't been able to get my oil temp over 175 yet.

Same thing Clonebug had an issue with.

theDrew wrote:
my only heat issue right now is my IAT's are reaching 130f+ when i start beating on it. But I'm a ways away from pushing more than the 7lb in it

Same thing I'm having an issue with Rolling Eyes
I'm working on getting the final pieces to my homebuilt water/meth kit right now. You can only run about 7-8lbs like we are doing with no intercooling. Switching to E85 and a completed water/meth system should hopefully get me up to 20lbs this season Twisted Evil

Your tune is safe the way it is as long as you're not getting too hot with that stoich cruise. Have fun with it. I'm in my second year of running my turbo bug with MS, and I'm learning something new every time I mess with it.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

theDrew wrote:
here ya go

AFR map:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I'm not familiar with MS3X so bear with me if there are some specifics you can do that I can't.

First things first......If you are at 7 lbs and planning on going up you should build your Ignition, fuel and AFR maps to compensate for it.
I would start at 20 or 30 kpa and progressively move all the way up to 200 kpa. Jumping from 100 to 150 kpa in one bin doesn't give much chance for the computer to ramp up to the new boost level.
If you don't use the upper parts for now at least you don't have to keep building a new map every time you add boost.
My maps are from 20 KPA to 265 kpa but I am running dual tables in ignition and fuel for better resolution.
Your AFR map is not doing anything unless you have EGO correction activated. It will work when running Autotune but you could also let EGO correct it while logging and then see what % it is adding or subtracting and do that manually once you get home.
You do need to get your target AFR's set and also get your Lambda Delay Table set up in order for Autotune to work correctly.

On my fuel map I run about 12.8-13.3:1 at idle just because that is where my engine seems to like it. I have a little box set up just for idle afr's.
I run 14.7 from 30 kpa through 90 kpa and 12.5:1 from 100kpa through 175 kpa.
200kpa through 265 kpa is at 12.2:1 afr.


theDrew wrote:

Spark map:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


note I'm pulling a bit less than 1 degree per psi of boost right now.


I cant remember what you are running as far as W/I if any so you are going to have to update your specs here so we can keep up.

If no W/I or intercooler you might want to err on the side of caution which it seems you are especially with those SS pistons.
Chip or others might know more of what they can handle but starting safe is always a good thing.

Since I added an intercooler along with my W/I I have had very little issue with detonation. I haven't messed with my ignition map since the dyno run and it has been working out pretty good lately.

Your engine will run on just about any setup but it will be up to you to get it to run the way you want it. No one else can really tune it to the way your want it.
My advice is to play with the timing and fuel and see how it runs.
I wouldn't lean it out too much while you are learning. You do not have a mileage engine.... you have a performance engine.......keep it safe first......

Your EGT's at 1700 are way too high. You need to find out why. I would add more fuel and then bump up the timing a little at a time.
I have only seen 1600*F on a dyno pull but usually only see 1400*F on the street.
I haven't done a log in a while though since I am just driving to and from work right now.

You should be able to run up to 40-45 degrees advance in your light cruise bins if you are lean enough.
I run about 36 degrees at 14.7-15.5 AFR right now but haven't bothered to tweak it since.

The end result is you need to tune it for how you like it to run. Not the way the internet says it should be.
Tweaking it takes time and you will get more comfortable with it as you drive it longer and farther.
Also, as you get more time on it you will notice the little burps and jerks that you don't like and those take a little tuning to get rid of.

Get a good log of it driving on and off boost and post it here or on STF so we can download it.
Post the log and the current tuning file and I/We can load it into my Tunerstudio or Megalog Viewer and see it real time.
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http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Chip Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Here's a couple of my tables. This is my 91 octane timing map. I do have an intercooler, and spray a pretty big shot of methanol above 14psi, I think.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

What fuel are you running?
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

First things first. Here are the NGK 8's coming out -- not very clean.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Switched to the 6's and no more issues.

Clonebug -- thanks, theres alot to digest in there., still going through it. I ran MS3X on my NA setup for 2 years and so I'm not new to it.

One thing to make sure were all clear here is that the ECU does linear extrapolation on the tables in the X & Y, so on my spark table for example, it will extrapolate between 100kpa and 150kpa and pull timing in a linear fashion.

I'm running pump gas, 91 octane, no cooling or water of any sort at the moment.

I started out table switching based on MAP, but found that to be difficult to rough things in as I had TWO maps to mess with while trying to keep my eyes on the road.

I ended up using using the ITB algorithm for fuel load with a multiply map based on MAP. Here is my current multiply map (VE2). I roughed this in initially to be very rich, so I'm starting to lean it out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


AFR and spark load are computed based on MAP.



clonebug wrote:
Your EGT's at 1700 are way too high. You need to find out why. I would add more fuel and then bump up the timing a little at a time.
I have only seen 1600*F on a dyno pull but usually only see 1400*F on the street.


Where are you taking your EGT measurements? My probes are 2" from the head, so I imagine the readings would go down the farther you get away from the head.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

I can't remember what I read about itb mode, but i don't think it is great for a turbo car. I can't remember why. Doesn't it use MAP for accel and the switch to tps for the rest of the time. Meaning that all of your tables will really only go to 100 because thats all the throttle you can give. I'm pretty sure its something along those lines. I ended up setting mine up as alpha-n switching to map, maybe only on fuel though. Can't remember, been too long since I've tinkered with it.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

thats correct, so you tune your VE1 table with no boost and then setup the multiplier table (VE2, reference above table) which will multiply based on boost pressure.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

I prefer a nice even progression on my map bins.
Here is a pic of my VE, Ign, AFR and Lambda delay.....

This works for me but might not work for anyone else...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

man, if your deadtimes aren't right you're in for a world of hurt.

Turns out the datasheet I got for my injectors was wrong (wildly wrong!) and i was getting quite frustrated as my tunes would be all over the place, inconsistent and the VE's just didn't make sense.

Went back and forth with the manufacturer and finally got the correct deadtimes, and wallah, everything works great!

Onto the next problem.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Ok experienced turbo people -- I'm trying to figure out a noise I'm hearing at full load. The best I can describe it as a flutter -- I'm trying to prove to myself its not pinging. I'm at loss, so some ideas would be helpful!

Next step, I might strap a GoPro to the back and record it.

Heres the data log while I'm hearing it -- it seems to happen when I'm running up against the wastegate spring (~7psi, which seems to register around 5-6psi on the MAP sensor)

According to the logs (See graphs), heres the conditions:
Boost = 5.5-6psi
Fuel pressure = 42 psi ish
MAT = 120-140f
Spark Advance = 21 degrees
AFR = 11-10.5


So few questions:
1.) Does the wastegate make a sound when it is opening/closing once you're at target pressure
2.) Could I still see a ping even if I'm at "conservative" values for everything?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Is your gate electronically controlled? If so, it pulses to maintain pressure. It would probably make a sound.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

open wastegate just sounds like open exhaust unless it's dumped back into the exhaust pipe before the muffler.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Quote:
Is your gate electronically controlled? If so, it pulses to maintain pressure. It would probably make a sound.


no, no solenoid yet


Quote:
open wastegate just sounds like open exhaust unless it's dumped back into the exhaust pipe before the muffler.


the wg dumps back into the exhaust before the muffler

bigger question, would you guys expect those conditions to be in danger of pinging?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Why is your fuel pressure not rising with boost increase???
Do you have it boost referenced???
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

yes its rising rate.

thats the MS fuel pressure field thats computed based on MAP, so it should remain constant pressure throughout the MAP range.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

I played around with it last night some more, and I've refined my description to a "popping" noise.

Looking back in my logs its only when i'm hitting the wastegate pressure, so like 3rd gear pulls. (2nd gear goes too quick to build much boost Very Happy )

I added some MAT retard on it, (after 150f start pulling timing) but that didn't change anything as I never hit that)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Check all the way around all three of your silicone intake clamps/hoses for any slipped/ripped joints
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build Reply with quote

Side note, I think you can run waaay more timing in your map. Of course every build is different, so ymmv, but I would suggest getting to at least 32° by the time you hit 2500RPM in all areas except the 100KPA line, and that would be good to have at ~31°. Also, your cruise area can have a heap more timing. The stock 009 could hit 30-32°, and the SVDA could hit ~45°.
I think you are a bit too retarded in your boost areas as well. That's only 7.2psi at 150kpa, and I think you can be up to ~26° up there (obviously listen for ping). I suggest getting rid of some of those odd bins like the 10, 55, 62, 67kpa ect and get more in the 100kpa+ areas. It will give you more tunability in the boost areas.
Bottom line, ~32° @2500RPM, and more advance in your cruise areas. I have been getting a bunch of help over at STF, and I finally have a decent map that I am comfortable with. I can upload it here after work to give you an idea if you would like.
If you have been through all this and you have a map you like, then just forget what I said Laughing
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-18 GTI SE

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
Shocked

that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out Laughing
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