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tampaguy69
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2018
Posts: 7
Location: tampa
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: negative rear axle camber |
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The camber on both rear wheels is severely negative. It is very visible just standing behind the van. On a level surface placing a straight edge across the 15" wheel I need to bring the top of the wheel out 3/4" to get level (on both sides).
Checked the trailing arm bushings and they seem to be intact. Loosened the camber adjusting bolt and nut (outer one) and moved it as far as possible with no real results.
I'm about ready to install shims at the top two bolts fastening the bearing hub to the trailing arm.
Any thoughts. |
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61Scout
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| tampaguy69 wrote: |
The camber on both rear wheels is severely negative. It is very visible just standing behind the van. On a level surface placing a straight edge across the 15" wheel I need to bring the top of the wheel out 3/4" to get level (on both sides).
Checked the trailing arm bushings and they seem to be intact. Loosened the camber adjusting bolt and nut (outer one) and moved it as far as possible with no real results.
I'm about ready to install shims at the top two bolts fastening the bearing hub to the trailing arm.
Any thoughts. |
What is the actual problem here that needs to be addressed? Excessive tire wear? Has the van been to an alignment shop? If not, why not? And if so, please share the numbers.
Please let us know what year the van is, syncro or 2wd, also westy vs. tintop. Has the van had an engine conversion? Has the van been in an accident? Is there a bunch of stuff being carried on the roof? 20 bags of gravel in the back? You get the idea... Any modifications to the suspension or is the van stock?
Definitely do not install shims at the top two bolts. These are machined surfaces set from the factory. There is no reason where adjustment between the two mating surfaces would be necessary or advisable.
If it were me, and there were no worn out components found, I'd have the alignment done/inspected to get the actual values. That said, I've yet to place my hands on any van with low enough mileage to not find worn components. The majority of vans are long in the tooth. Even my well maintained 130K westy needed a complete suspension rebuild front and rear.
-Kevin
_________________
1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=
-Nec Spe, Nec Metu |
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dgbeatty
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2006
Posts: 702
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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You must have lowered your van, right. If so and there are no other problems what you need is a set of tapered plates/shims. DO NOT install spacers on just the top two bolts, things will break and no one will be happy.
I have a set I bought from Brickwerks in England several years ago and did not use. May be dusty but brand new. PM me if you are interested. |
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RoryGirl
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 785
Location: WestWorld Nanaimo BC
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xflyer
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2006
Posts: 212
Location: SOCAL
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:12 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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See manual (Bentley book) page 44.5.
Rear axle camber- Empty -15', +30-15. That's (') minutes. There are 60 minutes in a degree. So empty camber spec is + 15', wheels leaning out at the top, looking from the back of the van like the letter V. To -25' that looks like the letter A. Of course that V, or A angle is a great exaggeration. 25' is so close to 1/2 deg to be the same for us. 15' is about 1/3 of a degree.
You can get an inexpensive angle gauge at many tool supply places, hardware stores etc. With that and a straight edge against the wheel, vertically, you can measure camber fairly accurately. Easy math will translate the camber measurements into whatever your angle gauge reads in. Many read decimal so 1/2 deg would be 0.5.
Make sure that you are measuring with the van on a level surface and roll the van back and forth to make a few measurements at different places on the wheel.This will minimize any effects of bent wheels.
As others have mentioned, the more weight in the van the more negative camber it will have. Like the letter A. Also the springs will sag over time meaning the van will have more negative camber than when it was new.
Note that "Full Load" camber is -1 deg 10'. That will look like a lot to most people.
As others also mentioned as the suspension travels, wheel moves "up", camber goes more negative. This is the way it was designed to work.
Main reason is that when the van leans in a corner the camber of the wheel compared to the pavement stays about the same. This helps to maintain traction and lessens wear of the outside edge of the tread.
You may need new springs to get camber back in the spec range. Unless you want to have the van lowered then the camber plate/shims listed in another post will help.
Unless the pivot bushings at the front of the trailing arms are very worn out this will not be the cause of too much negative camber. Similar to that the trailing arms are not easily bent unless the van collides with a curb or gets in a big collision with another vehicle.
Every Vanagon I have measured had more negative camber on the left rear than the right rear. I have no idea why this is like this.
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C |
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tampaguy69
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2018
Posts: 7
Location: tampa
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| I was wondering if others could give me a measurement of ride height. Maybe from the center of the camber adjustment bolt to the ground. I have 15" wheels. That may tell me if my rear springs are weak. |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| tampaguy69 wrote: |
| I was wondering if others could give me a measurement of ride height. Maybe from the center of the camber adjustment bolt to the ground. I have 15" wheels. That may tell me if my rear springs are weak. |
Vanagons came with several different height springs over the years. The accurate way to measure ride height without discussing tire sizes is by measuring from the hub centre to the fender lip.
My van has had several sets! All measurements at RR, unladen:
1986 Weekender springs: 16 1/4"
1989 Westy springs: 16 1/2"
Carat springs: 15 1/4"
Carat springs with 1/2" spacer: 15 11/16"
The rear camber should be about 1* negative, so if the tops of your wheels are tipped in ~3/4" you're probably pretty close.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4492
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| xflyer wrote: |
See manual (Bentley book) page 44.5.
Rear axle camber- Empty -15', +30-15. That's (') minutes. There are 60 minutes in a degree. So empty camber spec is + 15', wheels leaning out at the top, looking from the back of the van like the letter V. To -25' that looks like the letter A. Of course that V, or A angle is a great exaggeration. 25' is so close to 1/2 deg to be the same for us. 15' is about 1/3 of a degree.
You can get an inexpensive angle gauge at many tool supply places, hardware stores etc. With that and a straight edge against the wheel, vertically, you can measure camber fairly accurately. Easy math will translate the camber measurements into whatever your angle gauge reads in. Many read decimal so 1/2 deg would be 0.5.
Make sure that you are measuring with the van on a level surface and roll the van back and forth to make a few measurements at different places on the wheel.This will minimize any effects of bent wheels.
As others have mentioned, the more weight in the van the more negative camber it will have. Like the letter A. Also the springs will sag over time meaning the van will have more negative camber than when it was new.
Note that "Full Load" camber is -1 deg 10'. That will look like a lot to most people.
As others also mentioned as the suspension travels, wheel moves "up", camber goes more negative. This is the way it was designed to work.
Main reason is that when the van leans in a corner the camber of the wheel compared to the pavement stays about the same. This helps to maintain traction and lessens wear of the outside edge of the tread.
You may need new springs to get camber back in the spec range. Unless you want to have the van lowered then the camber plate/shims listed in another post will help.
Unless the pivot bushings at the front of the trailing arms are very worn out this will not be the cause of too much negative camber. Similar to that the trailing arms are not easily bent unless the van collides with a curb or gets in a big collision with another vehicle.
Every Vanagon I have measured had more negative camber on the left rear than the right rear. I have no idea why this is like this. |
This is the condition I face, the left rear is angled much more noticeably "A" than the right side is. I measure about 1/2" out of plumb on the right and about one full inch on the left. That seems like a big difference. Trying to tweak this before a road trip and I cannot loosen the large outer pivot bolt/nut so that needs work.
Also, once loosened the adjustment itself makes no sense. Looking in the slot where the Bentley says to insert the screwdriver for the actual tweak I see nothing to be tweaked. What does the screwdriver engage to alter the camber setting? I expected to see something like a drum brake star adjuster, but no.
This van is not lifted or lowered from stock but I did use cutting board spacers on the left side to cure Westy lean which worked. Left-rear is now at 17 1/8" up an inch from before.
LF: 16 1/2" RF: 16 3/8"
LR: 17 1/8" RF: 17"
_________________
'87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:40 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| campism wrote: |
| xflyer wrote: |
See manual (Bentley book) page 44.5.
Rear axle camber- Empty -15', +30-15. That's (') minutes. There are 60 minutes in a degree. So empty camber spec is + 15', wheels leaning out at the top, looking from the back of the van like the letter V. To -25' that looks like the letter A. Of course that V, or A angle is a great exaggeration. 25' is so close to 1/2 deg to be the same for us. 15' is about 1/3 of a degree.
You can get an inexpensive angle gauge at many tool supply places, hardware stores etc. With that and a straight edge against the wheel, vertically, you can measure camber fairly accurately. Easy math will translate the camber measurements into whatever your angle gauge reads in. Many read decimal so 1/2 deg would be 0.5.
Make sure that you are measuring with the van on a level surface and roll the van back and forth to make a few measurements at different places on the wheel.This will minimize any effects of bent wheels.
As others have mentioned, the more weight in the van the more negative camber it will have. Like the letter A. Also the springs will sag over time meaning the van will have more negative camber than when it was new.
Note that "Full Load" camber is -1 deg 10'. That will look like a lot to most people.
As others also mentioned as the suspension travels, wheel moves "up", camber goes more negative. This is the way it was designed to work.
Main reason is that when the van leans in a corner the camber of the wheel compared to the pavement stays about the same. This helps to maintain traction and lessens wear of the outside edge of the tread.
You may need new springs to get camber back in the spec range. Unless you want to have the van lowered then the camber plate/shims listed in another post will help.
Unless the pivot bushings at the front of the trailing arms are very worn out this will not be the cause of too much negative camber. Similar to that the trailing arms are not easily bent unless the van collides with a curb or gets in a big collision with another vehicle.
Every Vanagon I have measured had more negative camber on the left rear than the right rear. I have no idea why this is like this. |
This is the condition I face, the left rear is angled much more noticeably "A" than the right side is. I measure about 1/2" out of plumb on the right and about one full inch on the left. That seems like a big difference. Trying to tweak this before a road trip and I cannot loosen the large outer pivot bolt/nut so that needs work.
Also, once loosened the adjustment itself makes no sense. Looking in the slot where the Bentley says to insert the screwdriver for the actual tweak I see nothing to be tweaked. What does the screwdriver engage to alter the camber setting? I expected to see something like a drum brake star adjuster, but no.
This van is not lifted or lowered from stock but I did use cutting board spacers on the left side to cure Westy lean which worked. Left-rear is now at 17 1/8" up an inch from before.
LF: 16 1/2" RF: 16 3/8"
LR: 17 1/8" RF: 17" |
The screwdriver is just used as leverage to move the trailing arm on the chassis.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4492
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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Turned out to be just about that easy. I needed the air wrench to break it loose, after learning to immobilize the nut on the back side. Actual adjustment is pretty easy; use the screwdriver to force the trailing arm down to make the wheel more upright or release the jack to settle the vehicle weight and make it go the other way. Tricky getting the bolt not to slip at all when retightening but it's done for now. I might decide later to file the bolt's slot deeper to allow more adjustment if that turns out to be necessary.
_________________
'87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic |
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Mateo83
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2021
Posts: 607
Location: Lodi, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:01 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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I had to open the slot for the bolt adjustor on the trailing arm to get it closer.
_________________
83 Air-cooled 2.0 Tin Top |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:09 am Post subject: Re: negative rear axle camber |
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| With new bushings I had no issue getting vans in spec without modifying the hole. |
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