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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
A poor connection at the points makes sense, since in normal operation, more current flows thru the points, which would overcome a small discrepancy with contact. Since it is now a switch, small amounts of resistance could cause the switch ( points) to misfire
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Exactly. It can happen running a CDI box, or even with a compufire module or similar. There are many points of connection between the coil negative and actual ground, and any poor connection in that path can make it act up. Running a coil, the back EMF at the points spikes to several hundred volts, and this will arc across poor connections and help keep them connected, but you lose that if using them just as a trigger.
I didn't suspect it was as simple as, he didn't try cleaning the points. You can just use a piece of paper, doesn't have to be a particular kind of fish. Maybe it wasn't that simple?
Anyway, sorry for interrupting your thread. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Hey Jeff, any news on the distributor? |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:40 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| Hey Jeff, any news on the distributor? |
I ran out of time and on vacation now. Will check it next week. I need to run some fine sand paper through the points and break through to fresh metal lol. Those nos bosch points could be 20+ who knows. Then I will put distribitor back in, wire black box back up, and see if its ok.
Hows yours coming along? Up and running? I have a crap load of extra big cap stuff if u need any. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Below is the inside of my distributor. I was pretty careful when I routed the wires, and last night i checked to make sure the brand new wire was not chafed.
The condenser is very close to the brass plug, but even if it touches, its connected to the breaker plate which is grounded anyhow so does it matter if the condenser body grounds in more then one spot? When I advanced the breaker plate yesterday and drove to work, the condenser was moved away from the brass plug.
The ground wire is there connecting the breaker plate to body. and also the breaker plate advance spring is connecting breaker plate to body.
The next thing to do would replace the points and condenser, even though they are new Bosch. I wont be able to mess with it for awhile though.
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Origanally there was a ground strap from the breaker plate to the body of the dist. I dont see it in this pic.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Scott good eye! From that picture its about impossible to see. I grabbed the distributor and had to lift up the green wire, remove the spring and its underneath. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology...
Dale |
Its true. We all pick our mods we like, and where we want to stop. If we went on the premise of replacing each part that has a better upgrade, we would have our complete VW piled up in parts and a something else in front of us. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| Hey Jeff, any news on the distributor? |
I ran out of time and on vacation now. Will check it next week. I need to run some fine sand paper through the points and break through to fresh metal lol. Those nos bosch points could be 20+ who knows. Then I will put distribitor back in, wire black box back up, and see if its ok.
Hows yours coming along? Up and running? I have a crap load of extra big cap stuff if u need any. |
The distributer is done but other things are taking priority. My first job right now is to get out of my home state of California, done with it and all of it's insanity. To do that first I must sell this.
It still needs a lot of work to get top dollar. Once I am in my destination of Florida I will buy a bug for my 2234/48idf beast and use the distributor and my black box/msd6a combo.
Dan |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5966
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology...
Dale |
Its true. We all pick our mods we like, and where we want to stop. If we went on the premise of replacing each part that has a better upgrade, we would have our complete VW piled up in parts and a something else in front of us. |
We've chosen to bolt CNC parts and computer controls onto dinosaurs, and everyone does it their own way. It's part of why I love the vintage/ performance car groups..
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3438
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Quote: |
| With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology.. |
Crankfire may be the most accurate timing event for ignition, but it has one bad downside - Wasted Spark. The only way to get around that is to basically use what looks like a distributor to tell it the difference between #1 and #3. Single fire is alot smoother than wasted spark setups. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7213
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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Yes. and COP systems are really not an option if you use dual carbs. There is simply not enough space. CNP is an option, but requires some good brain capacity in the ignition part. I know no system in the cheaper end that can handle that, unless we are back to a distributor based position sensor. Then we are back to square one. I have tried to get around that wasted spark issue for some time, but have not come up with a usable solution yet.
T |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Quote: |
| With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology.. |
Crankfire may be the most accurate timing event for ignition, but it has one bad downside - Wasted Spark. The only way to get around that is to basically use what looks like a distributor to tell it the difference between #1 and #3. Single fire is alot smoother than wasted spark setups. |
AAAh.... But sequential is possible, and wasted spark does little to hurt performance ...Worst side of wasted spark is a little extra electricity used...
Go over to shoptalk forum and talk to the guys in engine management about sequential.... You are behind the times...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7213
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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Sequental, yes. But then you - are - over in the ECU camp.
I disagree with the wasted spark not harming anything. Wasted spark has a tendency to f*ck up idle and make it much more unsteady. It should´nt, but it does.
The closest to "right" using crankfire and still distributor is the way AJ Sims do it. You have to use a rotor from a Golf3 or Opel Astra to get enough spread on the degrees covered. I have never used it myself, but I had a car on the rolls that had it installed. That´s why I know about the benefit of the rotor change.
T |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| esde wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
With all the time and effort you could have gone crankfire and COP or CNP ... Seems to be latest concepts of ignition technology...
Dale |
Its true. We all pick our mods we like, and where we want to stop. If we went on the premise of replacing each part that has a better upgrade, we would have our complete VW piled up in parts and a something else in front of us. |
We've chosen to bolt CNC parts and computer controls onto dinosaurs, and everyone does it their own way. It's part of why I love the vintage/ performance car groups.. |
I agree, there is something about keeping it original as possible but at the same time making it haul ass with a analog feel to the way it drives. I will do the a hidden black box with distributor but I will not go F.I. even though we all know it's better. There is something about the way carbs drive that I just like better. It's organic, kind of the way a analog LP sounds compared to a CD.
My 2016 Mazda MX-5 is a wonderful car but to crack the throttle quickly is just not the same as a carbed HP VW (it's muted). I know a lot of that is the software and the manifold design and all the compromises modern cars have to address.
Dan |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3438
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| As Alstrup noted, there is a BIG difference in idle quality of wasted spark vs sequential. Much smoother idle, less vibration. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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Geeez.... Sorry I brought it up.... JUst wanted to make note there was other options out there than spended many hours on a non productive situation....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Yes. and COP systems are really not an option if you use dual carbs. There is simply not enough space. CNP is an option, but requires some good brain capacity in the ignition part. I know no system in the cheaper end that can handle that, unless we are back to a distributor based position sensor. Then we are back to square one. I have tried to get around that wasted spark issue for some time, but have not come up with a usable solution yet.
T |
Believe a gentleman on STF put this style COP on engine with dual carbs...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3461
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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From my big cap distribitor that was messing up:
Took my new Bosch NOS points apart and there was a light haze of coating like we suspected. New doesnt mean perfect right? A few passes with some 400 grit, cleaned with Electrical contact cleaner, put it all back in the car with the black box and down the freeway not a single issue.
Those points came out of a really old package, who knows how old they really are.
Remember the advance plate locked out position with the brass plug? We thought it would be way off... well when I apply vacuum to one of my cores to mimic zero advance that plate is very close to where the plate is when its resting on the brass plug. Close enuff to call it good.
Below is where my timing table is now:
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
Crankfire may be the most accurate timing event for ignition, but it has one bad downside - Wasted Spark. The only way to get around that is to basically use........... |
Use the distributor to distribute the spark!
You can run a crank trigger, AND a distributor.
I too am not highly impressed with wasted spark systems. Spark plugs really do work better forwards, and there is really no need for two coils under 8k rpm
But crank trigger wheels and VR sensors usually work FINE.....so, maybe that's the way to go. Take the best of both, slap em together. |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3438
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Locked-Out Bosch Big Cap Distributor for CB Black Box/MegaSquirt |
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| Its funny how the smallest issues cause the biggest headaches - dirt on the points. Glad its ok now Jeff! |
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