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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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What I have done on several (non VW) gear boxes, automotive and industrial, over the years is go to a thinner oil (like a 10w30, 5w50, or ATF) and raise the level significantly. The gear boxes I did this to had various problems to start with:
-so little oil capacity where even a minor leak would quickly become fatal.
-a box with a foaming problem
-a box that had a history of running hot
-a box that isn't lubricating one of the upper bearings well
-poor synchronizer function
-a box running at extreme angles
An easy way to get extra oil into an otherwise stock Vanagon box is to just run the tires on the side of the fill plug up on a curb so the box sits at an angle. |
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metropoj Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 1343
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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interesting ponderings.
So, I thought I read somewhere that VW dropped the oil fill level to also make it easier to shift ?
So, in theory, wouldn't making the oil level higher make it more difficult to shift ? _________________ John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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metropoj wrote: |
interesting ponderings.
So, I thought I read somewhere that VW dropped the oil fill level to also make it easier to shift ?
So, in theory, wouldn't making the oil level higher make it more difficult to shift ? |
When I bought my Syncro it had about 150K miles on it and the shifter could barely be made to move and gears would scrape readily when it did go into gear. I tried lowering the oil level as recommended by VW and got zero improvment. I eventually went to a thinner oil and raised the oil level by running one side of the rig up on blocks when I added oil. The transaxle had 300K miles on it when the engine went and never showed much fuzz on the drain plug, the synchros are certainly at the end of their usable life so the unit will need to be gone through before it ever goes back into service. Waiting for a lottery win so I can pay for the rebuild. |
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Spezialist Banned
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 1941
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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The detergents in transmission oil, have two purposes to clean and reduce foaming. Need some handcleaner on the road? Fresh trans oil will clean it, then rinse with plain water.
Adding too much oil will result in seeping and probably less cooling since throwing gears will be in cavitation.
Keeping the gearbox clean and working the vehicle within specs is your best bet.
Example, don’t carry canned food or too much water on long trips. Towing? Better hit a scale.
Learning the limits of the vehicle “it’s duty cycle” will give you longevity with reliability and durability over trying to outthink engineers with billions of miles of experience in their education.
Just my opinion _________________
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Spezialist wrote: |
Need some handcleaner on the road? Fresh trans oil will clean it, then rinse with plain water.
....
Keeping the gearbox clean and working the vehicle within specs is your best bet. |
Regarding the hand cleaner: gearbox technicians have known this secret for many years, they use it in the bath as well, and even the clothes washing machine, and some use it as a perfume. But it is a closely guarded secret, even their wives don’t know.
Vehicle within specs needs only clean gear oil. Its the vans where the owner has added a large engine, it’s necessary to improve the lubrication.
Keep in mind that VW recommended to NOT change the transaxle lubricant until 90,000 miles. They obviously felt that the build quality was high enough to run in its own vomit and satisfy buyers. Some of us are wondering how long they would last if owners changed the lubricant at the first 1,000 miles and then 30,000 thereafter. And then every 15,000 after 90k.
Transaxles are not like OEM anymore. You don’t know what quality parts you will get. And what if one of your gears already has 400,000 miles, it could start contaminating the whole trans anytime and blow the whole deal 20,000 miles after rebuild - especially if nobody’s checking the cleanliness of your lubricant. “Within specs” is for new OEM, not for our antiques. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Spezialist wrote: |
The detergents in transmission oil, have two purposes to clean and reduce foaming. Need some handcleaner on the road? Fresh trans oil will clean it, then rinse with plain water.
Adding too much oil will result in seeping and probably less cooling since throwing gears will be in cavitation.
Keeping the gearbox clean and working the vehicle within specs is your best bet.
Example, don’t carry canned food or too much water on long trips. Towing? Better hit a scale.
Learning the limits of the vehicle “it’s duty cycle” will give you longevity with reliability and durability over trying to outthink engineers with billions of miles of experience in their education.
Just my opinion |
True
Sodo=nonesense
Side note:
I think with "clean gearbox" Specialist means the outside of the box.
As this is very important for the cooling. |
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zuhandenheit Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2008 Posts: 846
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Sodo wrote: |
Spezialist wrote: |
Need some handcleaner on the road? Fresh trans oil will clean it, then rinse with plain water.
....
Keeping the gearbox clean and working the vehicle within specs is your best bet. |
Regarding the hand cleaner: gearbox technicians have known this secret for many years, they use it in the bath as well, and even the clothes washing machine, and some use it as a perfume. But it is a closely guarded secret, even their wives don’t know. |
What a great tip.
I've got some old used oil I've been meaning to dispose of -- would that work just as well? I'm thinking I could use it to refill my hand soap pump bottles.
Oh, and does it work well for dishes? And what about in the dishwasher? (It seems like this would also be good for the motor!) |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Waldi wrote: |
Sodo=nonesense
Side note:
I think with "clean gearbox" Specialist means the outside of the box.
As this is very important for the cooling. |
Waldi you have a very strange opinion regarding gearbox maintenance. Your advice that contaminated oil is OK oil but the person should replace the bearings every 60,000 miles doesn't work for most Vanagon owners in the USA. They prefer to run the gearbox longer. Changing bearings is $500 to drop the trans, plus $1200 minimum to change the bearings, it's about $1700. It's hard enough to get them to understand the benefits of changing the oil, they are not going to agree to change the bearings.
It makes more sense to change the oil. Waldi I have NEVER heard your method from any other gearbox technician. I think someone should change oil often, and then change the bearings if the magnet starts get hairy, but BEFORE the trans makes noise. Or better to change the bearings appx 150,000 miles - OR- BEFORE the magnet gets hairy. So I agree with you at 150,000 mi, except keeping clean lubricant. That's 150k on an OEM trans not a rebuild.
The trans I have now got new bearings BEFORE it made noise. Freshened up while it was still good inside. I don't know the miles. It runs quiet and cool, I like this trans! I have a cooler + filter on it.
I see advice on theSamba to "run the box until it's dead" - I think that is bad advice. When you do that, you run all your gears and shafts in a terrible grinding paste, then your next rebuild, if you re-use some of those gears or shafts they have lost MUCH of their next life from running in contaminated lubricant. And they will contaminate the lubricant of your rebuilt trans.
But I agree a clean gearbox outside is best for air cooling the gearbox. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:09 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Sodo stop to quote things from me that i ve never sayed.
I dont care what you or others do.
Dont sound like like a "Specialist"
You are not. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Waldi wrote: |
Sodo stop to quote things from me that i ve never sayed.
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You are right, I'm sorry and I may be mistaken (in trying to understand your advice in other threads). It is not clear what aspect of the discussion you have graciously labeled as "Sodo=nonesense."
VW recommending to reduce oil level 15mm to shift easier seems like much worse advice, than thread subject "OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life?". But the intent is different because VW wants the car to be easier to drive, and they feel it will last long enough (90,000 miles?) to satisfy the original buyer.
The antique'r has a different focus. The antique'r can learn to shift slower and wants to drive the trans longer. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Whats hard to understand if i say, if you want to be sure not to get broke on the street its better to check the box every 100k km than to change, cool, filter the oil, and drive it untill something breaks. Especialy with stronger engines driving without feeling.
Cheking the magnet helps here a bit, but not at all.
No need to change the oil if you use a good one. Leave it over night, fill it in again without the dirt (if there is any) on the button.
VW reduced the oil on gazer engines and on SA gearboxes with oil plates to avoid foam on high revs and for easier shifting.
Easier shifting means less wear, so less contermination.
What Specialist has sayed about cleaning with oit, counts to the new synthetic oils but not for the old or cheap oils.
Thats why you should not fill synthetik oil into a old gearbox.
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Lucky i am disensambling 3 boxes today. You get fresh on topic pics
Thats the 3rd one. A 16 Syncro box. Was never open but somebody changed the old oil for synthetic one. Would not surpirce me if i find something inside that they tryed to repair with oil
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Waldi wrote: |
Whats hard to understand if i say, if you want to be sure not to get broke on the street its better to check the box every 100k km than to change, cool, filter the oil, and drive it untill something breaks. Especialy with stronger engines driving without feeling. |
It is best to do both, but to open/check the box every 100k km (60k miles) is not feasible in the USA due to the cost. In the USA, if you can find someone to do this for $500 R&R PLUS $1200 for new bearings and labor, they are far away. And some of them,,,, you don't want those people touching a wrench to your box, especially a Syncro box.
And filter/cooling system is too much "project" for 99% of owners.
Even changing the oil is too much for most owners, but changing doesn't cost much. Changing oil is the most efficient use of $$.
Waldi wrote: |
Cheking the magnet helps here a bit, but not at all. |
It helps to know __when__ your box becomes old and starts making trash in the lubricant. Then you can know,,,, to stop driving it because the grinding paste destroys valuable parts that you would like to use in your transaxle's second life.
Waldi wrote: |
No need to change the oil if you use a good one. Leave it over night, fill it in again without the dirt (if there is any) on the button....(bottom) |
I agree with this, except I have TESTED it takes about 2 or 3 weeks for the very fine metal contamination to reach the bottom. Some larger particles go to the bottom in one night, but the oil can be "clean as new" in 3 weeks. I can understand, if you have a repair shop, that you cannot keep your customer's oil for 3 weeks.
A Van owner who is able to change gear oil, can buy a 2nd batch of (expensive?) oil, and purify it for longer, perhaps even 6 months. And put absolutely clean exchange this purified specialty oil every 6 months.
Waldi wrote: |
VW reduced the oil on gazer engines and on SA gearboxes with oil plates to avoid foam on high revs and for easier shifting.
Easier shifting means less wear, so less contermination. |
Yes grinding gears produces more contamination in your lubricant. Syncro has heavy gears because of the granny, and uses same size synchros, thus will never shift as easy as the 2WD. Many Syncro owners don't understand this, but they do understand Syncros transmissions wear out faster than 2WD. You have to shift a Syncro slowly, don't grind it, or you are contaminating your oil and shifting like a 2WD will destroy your box faster. Especially if you don't/can't monitor the conndition of your lubricant (cleanliness). This is an important part of Syncro knowledge.
Waldi wrote: |
What Specialist has sayed about cleaning with oil, counts (refers) to the new synthetic oils but not for the old or cheap oils.
Thats why you should not fill synthetik oil into a old gearbox. |
Yes I agree - because synthetic oil detergents loosen the sedimented contamination, mixing abrasive particles into your new (expensive) synthetic oil. Which changes your $$$ into a grinding paste, exactly the OPPOSITE of the goal. Anyone who wants to change to Synthetic should think about this, it can be a BIG mistake, and cost much more in transaxle degradation, than the waste of $$$ for the special lubricant.
However you could buy 2 batches and settle your big $$$ oil until it's clean. This is a project for the serial tinkerer.
....cross-linked for your forum enjoyment.....
Proposal:Settling metal fines out of gear oil that's still fresh
I am glad to see that you agree contamination is damaging to precision mechanical components. I only have to get you to agree that removing the contamination early and often is efficient and low-cost. But you must go under the van....easy for Waldi, difficult for the normal van owner. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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But the subject of the thread is "Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life?"
The subject of contamination is off-topic. There is no point in exploring methods to prolong transaxle life if you are not doing the most obvious FIRST step, which is minimize/remove abrasives in your lubricant. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Sodo i think not to awnser to you anymore, cause its wasted time for me.
I leave you alone with your fantasies and change to the "failures and solution" thread. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Waldi wrote: |
Sodo i think not to awnser to you anymore, cause its wasted time for me.
I leave you alone with your fantasies and change to the "gearbox and solution" thread. |
Agreed Original Vanagon manual gearbox failures and solutions is a better place for your post and pics. Can you delete them from this thread and re-post in the other?
Perhaps there is an error in communication between the German and English (as written). I think the English speaking members who read this subject can see that you and I "mostly" agree.
I think the english reader can follow the logic and finds the subjects interesting, sorry if it's understood wrong. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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No we dont agree, as you mix what i say with your believings.
This is like mixing french foot with american foot saying it is better. |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Cajun foot ftw! _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9603 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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Waldi I think it’s even more clear the problem is a german/English communication error. Even though your English is good.
But I just had a sudden craving for Jambalaya.... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Manual Transaxle: OVERFILL for lower temperature & longer life? |
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On the subject of overfilling, I am curious why people think it leads to foaming? I'm just trying to get some brainpower on it so I'll just give a "stream of consciousness" here as if we were sitting around a campfire.
Foaming happens when an object (a gear tooth) enters oil from air at a high enough speed it creates an "air hole" in the oil behind it that cannot collapse fast enough to avoid being drawn into the oil. Obviously, many teeth, many holes and a continuous process of creating foam.
In the Vanagon gearbox, the lowest gears would presumably be unable to create foam because they are fully immersed and their teeth don't swing up into free air. So, what if we filled it up high enough ALL gears were immersed? Theoretically, as long as there is enough air space to allow for heat expansion, seal pressure would only increase whatever the psi increase is for another - what? - 2 inches of oil? (BTW - simply put a short hose and common cheap fuel filter on the vent tip to prevent contamination. Water wading? Make it a few feet long and terminate it up by the taillights as high as you want. Common LandCruiser trick. Mine are all elevated about 4 feet high.)
Gear shifting issues would be the reason VW lowered the oil by 15mm or whatever, btw. The cold shifting issue is likely the worst of it, and its caused by the gears being spun by rotating oil and gear teeth not mating, leading to either grinding or what a consumer calls "stiff" shifting when the teeth don't line up like the synchro intends. So they must have determined lowering the oil lowered the sympathetic spinning by oil of the undriven gear you're trying to engage. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that overfilling would cause this issue, but a patient and caring driver/owner/tech savvy type could easily adapt to it.
A comment on gears. In this trans, the lower gears on the pinion shaft stay at ground speed and are always slower than the upper shaft gears. The upper mainshaft gears are engine-RPM. So worst case for the trans in causing foaming or cavitation is high-RPM hill climbing with heavy gear tooth pressure. Best case is cruising along in top gear.
A comment on gear lube. Generally in a gear case, the oil "climbs" up the partly immersed upper gears as a layer of oil you can see, most is flung off at higher RPMs and the gears are wetted all the way around. But the contact points (our main shaft to pinion shaft gears) are generally immersed and transfering heat away through the oil. With foaming, that critical heat transfer is reduced.
I like the linked article on gearcase lubrication. Switching topics slightly, I think it's wise to know that when people recommend things on other threads like putting diesel fuel, trans oil, kerosene into engines to clean sludge and the like that tiny leftovers of the wrong fluid can affect things dramatically. Such as the article's example of a company having foaming problems tracing it to a tiny residue of a cleaning solution. So be wise and cautious when trying to outsmart the engineers on fluids. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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