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ZENVWDRIVER
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Onceler wrote:
I'm gonna throw this out there just to read the responses. But the current "culture" as seen on TV is to buy an original or restored car, add aftermarket wheels, lower it, install a crate engine, and sell it for a profit. I haven't watched any show where a modified car is returned to stock and sold for a profit. But this is nothing new even before the proliferation of flipping type shows. Why does everyone think original VW's will bring all the money when it hasn't been the case in the past. Of course, all I want are original cars, that way I can give them the above treatment Shocked


i'm a poor example as I watch zero TV... is a total waste of time, for me.

... i'm with you. I like original or slightly modified, the best... but have an appreciation for most of the creative-minded artists too. ..

...turbos, dual carbs, big engines, cluttered dashes, fat tires, fancy paint jobs, deviating too much from the norm, generally does not excite me much though and while I like the lowered cal look or a "bagged" car, I would not want that, for myself, but I do appreciate all the work involved.

VWs have been a great car to flip, since I've been involved, starting in the mid 60s... I made a little profit on almost all of them... were really always in demand for the past 50 years. I remember when split and oval type ones were pretty much what was desired... when busses were not very desirable and forget type 3 and 4s.

There was a time when the VVWCA was all the rage with pre war examples through 1952 splits as acceptable... and even Zwitters and ovals were 2nd class citizens... forget any post '58 big window... LOL almost too much emphasis was placed on rear window size and shape - the defining factor, early on.

My brother and I drove 200 miles to the first VVWCA meet in Pittsfield, Mass. in 1975 to attend the first meet - I was in my 1955 11g and Bird, my bro. in his '52 Zwitter... back then, busses were not very desirable. So, I guess it's a generational-thing to really like the early, pre 3/55 stuff.

My little brother restored his Zwitter, in the early 70s with all original VW parts from a VW dealer - ALL NOS VW parts

This early VW-generation was not into the custom frenzy that exists today.. totally stock was all the rage.

Now-a-days there is an audience for everything - stock, custom, rat, patina, baja, busses, lowered... just anything goes and that's the way it should be - everyone happy and satisfied.

... but give me an old cruddy '46 roll back anytime

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

I like original, or 'resto-mod'. My goal here was to keep it as original as possible, while having a totally driveable and yet unique car. I'm still amazed that a properly done 'resto-mod', will bring 30-40% more than totally stock examples.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

When you move from a dependent class of car owners to a luxury class, your whole business model changes.
Its why clapped out shitboxes sell for 6 figures at auctions, and the guys who built them are still bragging about the trailer queens that will never run long enough to need an oil change.

This same mentality is across the whole vintage vehicle scene.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
When you move from a dependent class of car owners to a luxury class, your whole business model changes.
Its why clapped out shitboxes sell for 6 figures at auctions, and the guys who built them are still bragging about the trailer queens that will never run long enough to need an oil change.

This same mentality is across the whole vintage vehicle scene.

Too many NDAs signed for me to tell all. Rolling Eyes


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
When you move from a dependent class of car owners to a luxury class, your whole business model changes.
Its why clapped out shitboxes sell for 6 figures at auctions, and the guys who built them are still bragging about the trailer queens that will never run long enough to need an oil change.

This same mentality is across the whole vintage vehicle scene.

Too many NDAs signed for me to tell all. Rolling Eyes


... shit boxes and queens are both great... everyone's likes are so different... I have a few old VWs with no titles and will never be driven - are just to keep me busy doin' what I like to do. I mean, how many cars can one drive? I like lookin' for parts for my shit boxes, just to improve them... is so much fun.

This 2/55 is just a fun thing that I got in 2012 for a hundred bux... just puttin' it together.... LOL is a shit-box that I trailer around.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Splitdog wrote:
I'm still amazed that a properly done 'resto-mod', will bring 30-40% more than totally stock examples.


Doesn't really surprise me, to be honest.

Stock cars are... kinda crappy, considering we're talking about a 1930's design now nearly 100 years later. Most people don't want to deal with the little vintage cars are known for, and even some small modifications can bring these old cars years forward in terms of creature comforts and just plain old driving pleasure.

We're at a point now where aftermarket parts are decades more advanced just by merit of how old the original designs are.

Add that in, plus you get people who may be interested in a car so that they can have it modified, and it becomes cheaper to buy a pre-done example rather than buy an unmodified car and send it off. Even with the price premium.

I'd imagine the market is a fair bit smaller for the restomod stuff, but hey, if the buyers are willing to pay...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Snerk wrote:
Splitdog wrote:
I'm still amazed that a properly done 'resto-mod', will bring 30-40% more than totally stock examples.


Doesn't really surprise me, to be honest.

Stock cars are... kinda crappy, considering we're talking about a 1930's design now nearly 100 years later. Most people don't want to deal with the little vintage cars are known for, and even some small modifications can bring these old cars years forward in terms of creature comforts and just plain old driving pleasure.

We're at a point now where aftermarket parts are decades more advanced just by merit of how old the original designs are.

Add that in, plus you get people who may be interested in a car so that they can have it modified, and it becomes cheaper to buy a pre-done example rather than buy an unmodified car and send it off. Even with the price premium.

I'd imagine the market is a fair bit smaller for the restomod stuff, but hey, if the buyers are willing to pay...


40% more surprises me,... that may be the asking price, but asking and getting are 2 different things - i'd say a% less, is the rule... i've heard that owners who mod their VWs must know that they'll always loose. So, be prepared...

Early cars -1940 to mid '55 ARE primitive and if that's "crappy" to some, I can see your point, but don't agree - oh man, those are the best... my guess is those nay-sayers never owned a really early example. They are entitled to their opinion and so am I - we just think different, is all.

... what an interesting statement to think more modern parts are better than originals...I could not agree less... am thankful for most repops, but are generally inferior, is my experience. I like that another would rather a repop - that will keep the hobby alive... nothing like the real thing, baby.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Depends on how one qualifies crappy.

Those early cars are pretty sad in terms of performance, but then again most everything else being made then was pretty sad too - and there were plenty that were much worse. Renault Dauphine? That was towards the good end of the worst! Laughing

By the late 1960's though, it's fair to say the beetle was starting to look pretty sorry, even relatively speaking. The competition was throwing away old designs and coming up with totally new ideas throughout the 1960's, but VW was still doing the same old thing with a tweak here and tweak there - until it almost killed them. Even by the crappy standards of the 1970's, a beetle was kind of crappy.

Funny enough, the least crap of that era, the Super Beetles, nobody wants now.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Mos6502 wrote:
Depends on how one qualifies crappy.

Those early cars are pretty sad in terms of performance, but then again most everything else being made then was pretty sad too - and there were plenty that were much worse. Renault Dauphine? That was towards the good end of the worst! Laughing

By the late 1960's though, it's fair to say the beetle was starting to look pretty sorry, even relatively speaking. The competition was throwing away old designs and coming up with totally new ideas throughout the 1960's, but VW was still doing the same old thing with a tweak here and tweak there - until it almost killed them. Even by the crappy standards of the 1970's, a beetle was kind of crappy.

Funny enough, the least crap of that era, the Super Beetles, nobody wants now.


Best car of those times, the 60s, was for me - the plymouth valiant/Dodge Dart with the slant 6 cylinder engine and auto trans... then the far superior Nippon cars were introduced = Toyota and Datsun. They blew all others outa' the water... made the super beetle look like the super blunder.
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2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
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9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

[quote="ZENVWDRIVER"]
Mos6502 wrote:

then the far superior Nippon cars were introduced = Toyota and Datsun. They blew all others outa' the water... made the super beetle look like the super blunder.


I get what you're saying about the Japanese invasion in the 70's. The cars had more amenities for sure. What's ironic is 99% of all the Japanese cars from the 70's have been scrapped long ago while there's ton's of super beetles still being used and enjoyed.

I can't recall the last time I've seen any Japanese car from the 70's on the road. 25-30 years ago? It's rare that I see 80's Japanese cars as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Aren't many Japanese cars that developed a cult following. Outside of the Civic, and Datsun 510, 240Z - not much of a scene.

If you live outside of the rust belt, you will still see examples of those at shows and meets and time to time even on the streets.

Similarly, look at VW: Beetle has a cult follower, Dasher, Passat, etc. do not. Which ones do you still see on the road or at shows?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Them is fightin words there is a loyal following of SB folks here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

[quote="wcfvw69"]
ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
Mos6502 wrote:

then the far superior Nippon cars were introduced = Toyota and Datsun. They blew all others outa' the water... made the super beetle look like the super blunder.


I get what you're saying about the Japanese invasion in the 70's. The cars had more amenities for sure. What's ironic is 99% of all the Japanese cars from the 70's have been scrapped long ago while there's ton's of super beetles still being used and enjoyed.

I can't recall the last time I've seen any Japanese car from the 70's on the road. 25-30 years ago? It's rare that I see 80's Japanese cars as well.


100% agree.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

The problem with '70s and '80s Japanese cars was they rusted out. My dad had a Honda CVCC that was warranted for RUST three times in the first 3 years. VWs were built far better- that's why they are still around but the Datsuns and Toyotas and early Subarus are not. In addition, up till the end of the '90s it was still possible to get genuine replacement VW parts for aircooleds at dealers- not so with the Japanese cars- probably because they fell apart too fast.

I very briefly had a Datsun B210- briefly due to rust.

The Beetle was basically passe by 1968 in my opinion, at least in USA. They had a great contender in the Type 3 which was built to compete with entry level Mercedes and BMW cars- and did VERY well. Also, the Bay Window Bus was quite a marvel when it came out- it drove and handled superior to any other "van" on the road, including Splits. Splits got kicked to the curb or handed down to the kids in huge numbers.

The Type 4 was basically an Edsel, unfortunately. They drove and handled very well but they were ugly and suffered from structural issues.

When VW introduced the Type 3, the idea was always that it would replace the Beetle, but Europe and the rest of the world kept buying Beetles as fast as VW could make them, so production lumbered on... until just recently in some countries.

Meanwhile, your first generation Rabbit, Dasher, and Shitrockets competed well with the Japanese onslaught, but the early Vanagons were duds due to mechanical issues and were an expensive mistake for VW. IMO VW should have made the Vanagon a wasserboxer right off. They tried with the Vanagon Diesel but that thing was a total joke, compounded by the fact that so many Americans had gotten burned by GM's Diesel shitboxes not too long before. The Vanagon Diesel made a 36 hp Split Bus look like a racecar.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
The problem with '70s and '80s Japanese cars was they rusted out. My dad had a Honda CVCC that was warranted for RUST three times in the first 3 years. VWs were built far better- that's why they are still around but the Datsuns and Toyotas and early Subarus are not. In addition, up till the end of the '90s it was still possible to get genuine replacement VW parts for aircooleds at dealers- not so with the Japanese cars- probably because they fell apart too fast.

I very briefly had a Datsun B210- briefly due to rust.

The Beetle was basically passe by 1968 in my opinion, at least in USA. They had a great contender in the Type 3 which was built to compete with entry level Mercedes and BMW cars- and did VERY well. Also, the Bay Window Bus was quite a marvel when it came out- it drove and handled superior to any other "van" on the road, including Splits. Splits got kicked to the curb or handed down to the kids in huge numbers.

The Type 4 was basically an Edsel, unfortunately. They drove and handled very well but they were ugly and suffered from structural issues.

When VW introduced the Type 3, the idea was always that it would replace the Beetle, but Europe and the rest of the world kept buying Beetles as fast as VW could make them, so production lumbered on... until just recently in some countries.

Meanwhile, your first generation Rabbit, Dasher, and Shitrockets competed well with the Japanese onslaught, but the early Vanagons were duds due to mechanical issues and were an expensive mistake for VW. IMO VW should have made the Vanagon a wasserboxer right off. They tried with the Vanagon Diesel but that thing was a total joke, compounded by the fact that so many Americans had gotten burned by GM's Diesel shitboxes not too long before. The Vanagon Diesel made a 36 hp Split Bus look like a racecar.


... completely agree with your assessment.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Tram wrote - "The Vanagon Diesel made a 36 hp Split Bus look like a racecar."
in 1981, the Vanagon diesel was the slowest production vehicle, in the world.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Splitdog wrote:
ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
for IF we identify with only ONE way exclusively, we shut-down, become closed-minded and disturbed....


Sometimes, one comes up with an idea, or a set of ideals, really, that Trumps all other inferior methods and at some point one must put aside their selfish interests and put the interests of others and the greater good at the forefront. People should accept this and give the new idea a try. Orange you glad for new ideas?


Yes, new and old ideas together, create harmony... one sided or only one way to view anything, the absolute, can never achieve a winning outcome... but creates polarization where we all shut down and become disturbed.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Yes. And flexibility is key along with steadfastness, too. Some things never change. Like good and evil, God's love, etc. Earth is a strange mix......
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Splitdog wrote:
Yes. And flexibility is key along with steadfastness, too. Some things never change. Like good and evil, God's love, etc. Earth is a strange mix......


... that's some paradox - to be steadfast and flexile, in your mind. I like that, thank you

E V E R Y T H I N G - C H A N G E S 24/7, in the state if constant flux, in my mind.

Like the title of this thread asks - What has changed? Maybe not much has changed as it seems we respectfully disagree. I like that too.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: what has changed? Reply with quote

Splitdog wrote:
Truth is paramount; the press is biased. But that is common knowledge....


"common knowledge"? I always thought common meant something is viewed the same by everyone... almost sounds absolute... Smile
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