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need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down
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mr. lang
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Joined: June 05, 2012
Posts: 207
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Just pulled the remaining block with the support bar, since I was not able to figure out how to swap from the bar to the hooks of the crane. Support bracket hole too small.
I considered this being save:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now finally the engine is pulled.

Tiny EA111 1.3 liter engine block
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Just a closeup of the piston seizure.
Can't feel it with my fingernail, but still had a lot of blow by.
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Already started to measure everything (measured again with bearing flange installed)
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main bearings are well within the tolerances of a new bearing and look like new.
axial play measured 0.11mm (new: 0.07...0.18mm, wear limit: 0.20mm)
radial play range from 0.044mm to 0.053mm (new 0.03...0.08mm, wear limit: 0.17mm)
They will be put back in for the next 100,000 miles

Also measured rod bearings. They need to be replaced, but measured them for reference. All within tolerance of new parts.
axial play 0.15mm for all 4 rods (new 0.05...0.31mm, wear limit 0.4mm)
radial play range from 0.034mm to 0.038mm (new 0.020...0.076mm, wear limit: 0.095mm)

Pistons and cylinders are also within wear limit, but needs to be addressed. Curious, what the engine builder will say.
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Yesterday I did visit a professional engine builder.

He did (predictable) say that this block does need to be bored and honed. 60€ ($70) per cylinder.
This, together with the needed new pistons will cost me more then a whole used Golf MK2
What a bummer, but I expected this to happen.


When I was at home I did closer inspect my pistons:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

cleaned piston #1 compared to #4. If you look very close where the valve pockets are, you can see, that the pistons (all 4 of them) had contact with the intake valves. There is a small recess visible surrounded by a small ridge.
When removed, all piston crowns were covered with carbon, so this must have happened (and corrected) a while ago. Maybe time belt slip?



To sum it up:

Engine symptoms when I bought the car and fixed by me short after:
intake air leaks en masse (all hoses at carburetor porous)
Rough idle additionally fixed
after air leaks fixed, CO and idle rpm were totally off but fixed too
Cold start problems (carburetor pull-down vacuum can was ripped)
Excessive valve lash
timing belt was stretched and replaced by me

at very low rpm, there was a knocking sound noticeable. My assumption was either piston slop or bad piston rings
at the venting hose a steady blow of smoke was visible and palpable (correct word?) -> blow by


Engine symptoms during the past 2 years since purchase and driving 30000km (~18,000miles) and before engine disassemble:
every time I checked CO and idle I had to adjust it. Very unsteady.
knocking sound still noticeable
blow of smoke out of venting hose was getting worse

Except that, engine did run very well but loosing more and more power and oomph during this past 2 ye


Engine problems I found during disassemble:
leak down test was okay with #1 = 25% and #2, #3, #4 = 10% loss
I could bite my ass for not doing an additional compression test
still massive intake air leaks -> probably responsible for unsteady CO and idle
valves within tolerances, but a few of them slightly bend -> contact with piston somehow
valve seats out of shape with imprints
cylinder head gasket blown
piston and cylinder well within tolerances, but suffered fuel flooding with cylinder getting ultra tiny grooves
rod bearing #3 damaged, but did not find a reason for this.
crank bearings like new.


What I will definitively do:
fix all the air leaks
complete valve job: replace valves, replace valve guides and let a pro fix valve seats
replace rod bearings and check rod alignment (straightness)


What I'm not sure about:
piston and cylinder are well within tolerances
pistons measured like new and look like new after a cleanup except the fuel flooding wear pattern
cylinder measured +0.04mm but well within the allowed +0.08mm but has the slightly grooves

My question is:
can't this be fixed with a hone and a new set of rings and call it good?
I mean i did drive the engine like this for the past 2 years.
I know I do sound like many poor saps from other treads who would like to take the short cut and not doing it right the first time.

My concern is:
Spend the grant of 500€ ($600) for new pistons and a pro builder and be done for the next decades?
Downside would be that the engine can only be bored and honed once. There is only one oversize piston size available.
What if I make something wrong during the assembly and for example the valves get in contact with pistons again? Then I'm f**ked

OR spend the money on new rings and get a hone and learn how to hone
This way, the oversize bore could be done later when engine is really worn out
But then I have to pull the engine again, not sure If I will find the patience again, since there are other projects waiting for my attention.
Can this even be honed? Or will this remove more then the left over 0.04mm (0.0016")?

OR get another engine block which I will end up with the same decisions.

I think I know the answer. Crying or Very sad once -> Smile

I would welcome any suggestion !!!!!!!!!!!


Let this thread be a warning to everybody: this will happen when you are digging to deep into a uncharted territory LOL
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Just found out that there will be one more oversize piston available which does take out some pressure from me.

Alternative I did search for used engine block/piston availability which is non existent.

So I cried and ordered the new pistons Crying or Very sad
There was this very cheap offer from a aftermarket supplier, I was squinting to for the past few days.
So I checked it out and some gdfhjf did buy them pistons during the past hours since I checked availability the last time.
After a few swear words I checked out the second best offer put it in my online shopping basket, was checking out the rod bearings and guess what, another dgasfjasghdf did buy the remaining pistons away from under my ass.
Lots of swear word followed but now the third cheapest set is on the way to me.
At least i can consolidate myself because I did buy from a reliable vendor.

Apropos swear words, I think it's time to make my thread more interesting and teach you some Swabian swear words:
I would start with "Leck mich am Arsch" which would translate to https://www.dict.cc/?s=leck+mich+am+arsch
which does sound not so nice, but we use it very often
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_salute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

Mods, if this is offending, let me know.
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modok
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Sorry i missed it, but you are welcome to ask engine question in the "engine forum". I'll discuss anything with pistons taht burns hydrocarbon fuel Wink

I am not sure you need oversize pistons.
How far out of spec are the bores and skirts and ring lands? it does not matter what they look like, unless there are large scratches or holes, it only matters how they measure.
if the wear at the top of the ring travel ring is less than .1mm over std, I would not bore it over. it can be honed and run again.

The valves hitting the pistons will probably not damage the pistons, but bent valves will make the engine run strange, exactly as you describe. it may still produce good power, but runs very unstable at idle
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

modok, thank you so much for helping me out !!!!

This is how I measured the ring lands and the skirts
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


like described in the workshop manual for my HK engine
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but with my micrometer I can't measure deeper down the cylinder bore, so I only did measure 10mm below top.
If I need to measure deeper down the hole, I gonna organize the correct tool.


Cylinders measured in the middle of the allowed range
Maximum allowed seems to be +0.08mm = 75.01mm (nominal value) + 0.08mm = 75.09mm
Measured: #1: +0.04mm, #2: +0.03mm, #3: +0.03mm, #4: +0.035mm
Crosswise: #1: +0.015mm, #2: +0.015mm, #3: +0.01mm, #4: +0.01mm
I've measured a few times to be sure and also with the 75mm-100mm as well as with the 50mm-75mm micrometer.

Pistons measured like new pistons
Minimum allowed diameter would be -0.04mm = 74.985mm (nominal value) - 0.04mm = 74.945mm
Measured: #1: -0.00mm, #2: -0.00mm, #3: -0.00mm, #4: -0.00mm

I've not measured ring grooves jet, but will do so during the weekend
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Would you have concerns because the original structure is missing on the piston? I think I could restore the lathe-grooves if necessary to catch more oil without shrinking the piston.

I did not figure out yet, how I can measure the cylinder grooves.
Is this even necessary? Fingernail can barely feel it.
Will this "hone out"?
Are 0.04mm diameter left enough to even start to hone it? How much will a fresh hone remove?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Any suggestions, I should also look for or measure?

Once again Thank you modok for chiming in !!!
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

The pistons skirts are still at max size....good!! very good news

I expect the cylinders can be honed, and they will be enlarged slightly, but if the piston to cylinder clearance is .01mm or less, it will still perform well.

It would be better to measure the cylinders with a "dial bore gauge", to be certain, but from what info we have, I think they can be honed.

The point of maximum wear in the cylinder is usual where the top ring stops at the top, the "ridge" as we call it. you can't even feel it....that is a good sign also.
IMO it is not necessary to hone until this area is 100% covered, if 2mm ring there remains untouched by the hone, and that little ring measures .05mm or less larger, that's good enough IMO. I understand you aren't really able to measure that, but whoever does the honing should. Unless that is going to be you also?? Wink
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