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need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Just pulled the remaining block with the support bar, since I was not able to figure out how to swap from the bar to the hooks of the crane. Support bracket hole too small.
I considered this being save:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now finally the engine is pulled.

Tiny EA111 1.3 liter engine block
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just a closeup of the piston seizure.
Can't feel it with my fingernail, but still had a lot of blow by.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Already started to measure everything (measured again with bearing flange installed)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


main bearings are well within the tolerances of a new bearing and look like new.
axial play measured 0.11mm (new: 0.07...0.18mm, wear limit: 0.20mm)
radial play range from 0.044mm to 0.053mm (new 0.03...0.08mm, wear limit: 0.17mm)
They will be put back in for the next 100,000 miles

Also measured rod bearings. They need to be replaced, but measured them for reference. All within tolerance of new parts.
axial play 0.15mm for all 4 rods (new 0.05...0.31mm, wear limit 0.4mm)
radial play range from 0.034mm to 0.038mm (new 0.020...0.076mm, wear limit: 0.095mm)

Pistons and cylinders are also within wear limit, but needs to be addressed. Curious, what the engine builder will say.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Yesterday I did visit a professional engine builder.

He did (predictable) say that this block does need to be bored and honed. 60€ ($70) per cylinder.
This, together with the needed new pistons will cost me more then a whole used Golf MK2
What a bummer, but I expected this to happen.


When I was at home I did closer inspect my pistons:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

cleaned piston #1 compared to #4. If you look very close where the valve pockets are, you can see, that the pistons (all 4 of them) had contact with the intake valves. There is a small recess visible surrounded by a small ridge.
When removed, all piston crowns were covered with carbon, so this must have happened (and corrected) a while ago. Maybe time belt slip?



To sum it up:

Engine symptoms when I bought the car and fixed by me short after:
intake air leaks en masse (all hoses at carburetor porous)
Rough idle additionally fixed
after air leaks fixed, CO and idle rpm were totally off but fixed too
Cold start problems (carburetor pull-down vacuum can was ripped)
Excessive valve lash
timing belt was stretched and replaced by me

at very low rpm, there was a knocking sound noticeable. My assumption was either piston slop or bad piston rings
at the venting hose a steady blow of smoke was visible and palpable (correct word?) -> blow by


Engine symptoms during the past 2 years since purchase and driving 30000km (~18,000miles) and before engine disassemble:
every time I checked CO and idle I had to adjust it. Very unsteady.
knocking sound still noticeable
blow of smoke out of venting hose was getting worse

Except that, engine did run very well but loosing more and more power and oomph during this past 2 ye


Engine problems I found during disassemble:
leak down test was okay with #1 = 25% and #2, #3, #4 = 10% loss
I could bite my ass for not doing an additional compression test
still massive intake air leaks -> probably responsible for unsteady CO and idle
valves within tolerances, but a few of them slightly bend -> contact with piston somehow
valve seats out of shape with imprints
cylinder head gasket blown
piston and cylinder well within tolerances, but suffered fuel flooding with cylinder getting ultra tiny grooves
rod bearing #3 damaged, but did not find a reason for this.
crank bearings like new.


What I will definitively do:
fix all the air leaks
complete valve job: replace valves, replace valve guides and let a pro fix valve seats
replace rod bearings and check rod alignment (straightness)


What I'm not sure about:
piston and cylinder are well within tolerances
pistons measured like new and look like new after a cleanup except the fuel flooding wear pattern
cylinder measured +0.04mm but well within the allowed +0.08mm but has the slightly grooves

My question is:
can't this be fixed with a hone and a new set of rings and call it good?
I mean i did drive the engine like this for the past 2 years.
I know I do sound like many poor saps from other treads who would like to take the short cut and not doing it right the first time.

My concern is:
Spend the grant of 500€ ($600) for new pistons and a pro builder and be done for the next decades?
Downside would be that the engine can only be bored and honed once. There is only one oversize piston size available.
What if I make something wrong during the assembly and for example the valves get in contact with pistons again? Then I'm f**ked

OR spend the money on new rings and get a hone and learn how to hone
This way, the oversize bore could be done later when engine is really worn out
But then I have to pull the engine again, not sure If I will find the patience again, since there are other projects waiting for my attention.
Can this even be honed? Or will this remove more then the left over 0.04mm (0.0016")?

OR get another engine block which I will end up with the same decisions.

I think I know the answer. Crying or Very sad once -> Smile

I would welcome any suggestion !!!!!!!!!!!


Let this thread be a warning to everybody: this will happen when you are digging to deep into a uncharted territory LOL
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Just found out that there will be one more oversize piston available which does take out some pressure from me.

Alternative I did search for used engine block/piston availability which is non existent.

So I cried and ordered the new pistons Crying or Very sad
There was this very cheap offer from a aftermarket supplier, I was squinting to for the past few days.
So I checked it out and some gdfhjf did buy them pistons during the past hours since I checked availability the last time.
After a few swear words I checked out the second best offer put it in my online shopping basket, was checking out the rod bearings and guess what, another dgasfjasghdf did buy the remaining pistons away from under my ass.
Lots of swear word followed but now the third cheapest set is on the way to me.
At least i can consolidate myself because I did buy from a reliable vendor.

Apropos swear words, I think it's time to make my thread more interesting and teach you some Swabian swear words:
I would start with "Leck mich am Arsch" which would translate to https://www.dict.cc/?s=leck+mich+am+arsch
which does sound not so nice, but we use it very often
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_salute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

Mods, if this is offending, let me know.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Sorry i missed it, but you are welcome to ask engine question in the "engine forum". I'll discuss anything with pistons taht burns hydrocarbon fuel Wink

I am not sure you need oversize pistons.
How far out of spec are the bores and skirts and ring lands? it does not matter what they look like, unless there are large scratches or holes, it only matters how they measure.
if the wear at the top of the ring travel ring is less than .1mm over std, I would not bore it over. it can be honed and run again.

The valves hitting the pistons will probably not damage the pistons, but bent valves will make the engine run strange, exactly as you describe. it may still produce good power, but runs very unstable at idle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

modok, thank you so much for helping me out !!!!

This is how I measured the ring lands and the skirts
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


like described in the workshop manual for my HK engine
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but with my micrometer I can't measure deeper down the cylinder bore, so I only did measure 10mm below top.
If I need to measure deeper down the hole, I gonna organize the correct tool.


Cylinders measured in the middle of the allowed range
Maximum allowed seems to be +0.08mm = 75.01mm (nominal value) + 0.08mm = 75.09mm
Measured: #1: +0.04mm, #2: +0.03mm, #3: +0.03mm, #4: +0.035mm
Crosswise: #1: +0.015mm, #2: +0.015mm, #3: +0.01mm, #4: +0.01mm
I've measured a few times to be sure and also with the 75mm-100mm as well as with the 50mm-75mm micrometer.

Pistons measured like new pistons
Minimum allowed diameter would be -0.04mm = 74.985mm (nominal value) - 0.04mm = 74.945mm
Measured: #1: -0.00mm, #2: -0.00mm, #3: -0.00mm, #4: -0.00mm

I've not measured ring grooves jet, but will do so during the weekend
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Would you have concerns because the original structure is missing on the piston? I think I could restore the lathe-grooves if necessary to catch more oil without shrinking the piston.

I did not figure out yet, how I can measure the cylinder grooves.
Is this even necessary? Fingernail can barely feel it.
Will this "hone out"?
Are 0.04mm diameter left enough to even start to hone it? How much will a fresh hone remove?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Any suggestions, I should also look for or measure?

Once again Thank you modok for chiming in !!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

The pistons skirts are still at max size....good!! very good news

I expect the cylinders can be honed, and they will be enlarged slightly, but if the piston to cylinder clearance is .01mm or less, it will still perform well.

It would be better to measure the cylinders with a "dial bore gauge", to be certain, but from what info we have, I think they can be honed.

The point of maximum wear in the cylinder is usual where the top ring stops at the top, the "ridge" as we call it. you can't even feel it....that is a good sign also.
IMO it is not necessary to hone until this area is 100% covered, if 2mm ring there remains untouched by the hone, and that little ring measures .05mm or less larger, that's good enough IMO. I understand you aren't really able to measure that, but whoever does the honing should. Unless that is going to be you also?? Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Quote:
The point of maximum wear in the cylinder is usual where the top ring stops at the top, the "ridge" as we call it. you can't even feel it....that is a good sign also.
IMO it is not necessary to hone until this area is 100% covered, if 2mm ring there remains untouched by the hone, and that little ring measures .05mm or less larger, that's good enough IMO. I understand you aren't really able to measure that, but whoever does the honing should. Unless that is going to be you also?? Wink

Could you please explain, what you did mean by the highlighted part ?

Well I thought about doing the hone myself, but then I would definitively need a dial bore gauge, which would cost me a small fortune (reasonable quality) and my engine would still end up in questionable condition. I think I let this do somebody with more experience.


I did thoroughly clean the pistons, but did not find the time yet to measure ring grooves. Hopefully, they will end up in the lower tolerance range. Then I will determine what to do next (hone only, or bore and hone).

During this, I've seen, that the piston #3 had a asymmetric carbon residue pattern along the cylindrical surface. This would fit the strange #3 rod bearing wear. Nothing serious, but now I have to check rod alignment even more thoroughly.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Needs a little more
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good enough
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rod is probably bent. Rods can be straightened.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Thanks modok, got it!



cleaned pistons even more and then measured piston ring grooves with (Johansson) gauge blocks
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


range of new piston ring clearance: 0.02mm ... 0.05mm, wear limit: 0.15mm
top ring: 0.05mm, 0.05mm, 0.05mm, 0.05mm
bottom ring: 0.03mm, 0.03mm, 0.03mm, 0.03mm
oil scraper: 0.02mm, 0.02mm, 0.02mm, 0.02mm
all of the grooves measured like for a new piston

I also measured piston skirt again, since I realized, that my micrometers did show wrong values.
minimum allowed diameter: -0.04mm
piston skirt: -0.01mm, -0.005mm, -0.01mm -0.005mm
Smile still perfect almost new

all 4 piston pins also measured like new 20.00mm -0.00mm

rod piston pin hole measured:
20.02mm, 20.03mm, 20.025mm, 20.025mm
that's a clearance of 0.02mm, 0.03mm, 0.025mm, 0.025mm
#2 seems to be slightly conical. From one side I measured 20.030mm, from the other 20.025mm
any good? piston pin clearance is not defined in my manual

If you look closer at the piston pin hole in the above pic, there is a dark spot to the left and also to the right in every of the 8 piston pin holes. What's that?
Can't measure these holes, don't have the correct tool (dial bore gauge Smile )
Pin did sit tight in the hole before removal.


Conclusion: I would say, that my pistons and pins can be reused.
So I gonna visit the next engine builder without showing him the pistons and ask, if he can do the hone job.
Any concerns?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Visited another pro shop. Yesterday dropped block off, today picked it up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They also checked rods for alignment.


modok I owe you a few beers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Looks like good work!
Did you ask at this shop if they could straighten the connecting rod?
The piston pin/ piston spin bushing clearance is OK

I use Scotch-Brite and soapy water to scrub the pistons where they touch the cylinders.
This helps to remove any small bits of dirt that are in the surface.

Why do you think the pistons are hitting valves?
Must be some reason.

It resembles a diesel head i think?
There should be a specification for how far the valves stick up from the head "valve protrusion" Or if they are recessed into the head surface "valve recession" And check valve guides too.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Quote:
Looks like good work!

I like this shop (BBR-Motoreninstandsetzung GmbH). I was there before to let them do my split bus heads. They have a Porsche aircooled background and are very familiar with VW aircooled engines too. And of course watercooled also.
I don't know what came over me, when I went to this other shop.

Quote:
Did you ask at this shop if they could straighten the connecting rod?
The piston pin/ piston spin bushing clearance is OK

Yes, they did straighten the rods, but they were in a hurry, so I forgot to ask which one. But I will do so, when I pick up the head.

Quote:
I use Scotch-Brite and soapy water to scrub the pistons where they touch the cylinders.
This helps to remove any small bits of dirt that are in the surface.

Thanks for the tip !

Quote:
Why do you think the pistons are hitting valves?
Must be some reason.

On the left piston you can see the ridge at the size of the intake valve (slightly smaller, then the recessed area on the piston.
On the right piston, there is also the ridge, but covered with carbon. This is how all pistons did look like.
So that's why I thought, that in the past the pistons did hit the valves, but was fixed.
This damage is at least older then 2 years and 20.000 miles, because it did not happen during my ownership.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Quote:
It resembles a diesel head i think?
There should be a specification for how far the valves stick up from the head "valve protrusion" Or if they are recessed into the head surface "valve recession" And check valve guides too.

I did not find any specification about valve protrusion/recession. Nada. The only note in the manual about that is: if you face the head, you have to cut the valve seat for the same amount, otherwise the valve will hit the piston.
So I measured valve recession which was 0.4mm for every valve.
When I gave the shop the head and the new valves to cut the valve seats, I told them, that the new valves should in no way recess less than the previous measured 0.4mm to be on the save side.
I replaced all valve guides by myself, but let the shop ream them. Pictures will follow.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Everything from the pro shop back at home.
Also got the "final" order in with new piston rings, rod bearings and other bits and pieces.

Measured all the new parts.
new rod bearings measured like new between 0.038mm and 0.040mm and are well within the max 0.095mm

I've measured ring gap on top and also at the bottom of the honed cylinder to get an idea of the conicity.
Ring gap was slightly above new, like expected after the hone job.
#2 and #3 had 0.55mm in a perfect cylinder, no conicity.
#1 and #4 had 0.55mm on top and 0.50mm at the bottom which resulted in a conicity of 0.015mm. Can't be any better.
all 4 top rings have 0.55mm (new 0.30mm...0.45mm, wear limit 1.0mm)
all 4 bottom rings have 0.50mm (new 0.30mm...0.45mm, wear limit 1.0mm)
all 4 oil scraper rings have 0.45mm (new 0.25mm...0.40mm, wear limit 1.0mm)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Cylinder diameter after the hone is 75.050mm X 75.040mm on all 4 of them.
Slightly oval, but still perfect.
Better than before.

During assembly of the piston rings I realized that the oil scrapper ring of #2 is twisted.
It does stick in the groove and it's difficult to rotate it around the piston.
Not sure if it was my fault or if this was like this out of the box. I ordered a new set anyway.

After a long intense cleaning session:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Also cleaned the crank which has very difficult to reach passages. There are oil galley plugs I don't want to pull. With every wash cycle black sludge came out of the holes. I think I gonna repeat this, till its completely clean.


Happy to coming closer to put it all back together.
The only thing not cleaned and checked yet is the oil pump.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

opened the oil pump and checked for wear. Just a visual inspection, since I had no oil pressure problems. If problems will arise, the pump is easy accessible with engine installed.

I just found out, that the haynes manual (which is available as download) does cover my engine in every detail, so I will no longer bore you with stuff already covered there.

oil pump disassembled
mark on the big cogwheel should face to cover plate. It's not an index mark.
Oil the pump before putting all back together to make it work on the first usage
I did not change the seal, because I did this not so long ago.
I can recommend to use use a PH3 screwdriver to open the countersunk bolts or you will screw them up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


detail of the center #3 crank support
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


VERY EXCITED, ASSEMBLE STARTED TODAY !
Check axial play again just to be sure.
Case was cleaned by pro builder shop which did save me a lot of time.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm still wondering why this concept of axially supporting the crank in the middle does work with these engines, but did not work with the split bus bastard engine resulting in broken cranks from compressing the clutch.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

every paper gasket will get a very very thin coat of Curil K2. First I massage it in and then I skim off the excessive stuff with my fingers.
Tried this first with the oil pump gaskets on my split bus engine and it does work very well. gasket does also not stick to the case and can easy be removed
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


rusty part got rust treatment with Fertan after installation (not jet done on the picture)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The flange on the crank has wear marks from the oil seal. As a workaround I've positioned the oil seal at a different location.
On the stock oil seal flange, the seal is recessed from the inside by 2.0mm.
I've re-positioned a new seal at 2.6mm.
A word of caution: Don't press in the new seal that it is flush with the outside of the flange. The flange has the shape of a wedge and the oil seal will then be sitting crooked in the flange and will start leaking pretty soon again.
The oil seal must be pressed in so that it will sit parallel to the inside surface.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To do so I've made this special "tool"
You can see how the oil seal is sitting recessed into the flange
the tool has the corresponding (2.6mm) protrusion.
this was made on a lathe
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the flange will be screwed to the lower part and the oil seal pressed in from the outside down to the lower parts protrusion.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had to fight with the piston pin circlip and this was the best method I've found out so far.
Place circlip on one side in the groove twist it and slide the pliers down in the notch
One circlip was already bend, so I have to order a new one (still available from VW)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

found a used circlip in good condition on a junk piston from my wall of shame
the left one is collapsed, the right is okay
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


with circlip installed time to complete the "small" block
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


arrow on piston must point to pulley side
Yum-yum !
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


con rod nut must be tightened in two steps
first step 30Nm (22 ft lb)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


second step 90° further
I've added a dot at 12 o'clock which should be at 3'o clock after I've done.
3 done, one more to go in this picture
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


dots on rod must also point to pulley side
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


engine tin after degrease, water/soap/brush wash, Fertan treatment and finally a good wash with water/soap/sponge
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


after a fresh coat with rattle can RAL 9005 semi gloss
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mr. lang
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

engine compartment cleaned
before:
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after:
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oil pickup tube installed
(hardening) curil applied to case seams
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flywheel tightened with the same technique like con-rods (dot at 12 o'clock should end at 3 o'clock)
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wobble measured 0.05mm
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oil pan installed -> short block done (could fit in my bicycle frame)
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against expectation did I sleep very well last night.
But the days before I was reflecting, if I did put everything correct together.
everything measured and in tolerance - check
everything oiled before fitted - check
everything fitted in correct direction - check
piston pin circlips full seated - check
piston rings with label top on top and 120° apart - check
everything tightened to correct torque -> con-rods for sure, flywheel for sure, clutch for sure, pulley for sure, bearing shell yes for sure
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Changing valve guides did sound very easy in the manual. I have a shop press, so I did it myself.
lathed a copy of the 10-206 tool and pressed old ones out
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and new ones in
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old vs. new
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remnants of the oil to use during insertion
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Then I did drop this head off at the pro shop.
They did ream the guides and did a 45° single angle job.

I expected a 3 angle valve job, but did anyway continue to assemble all back together
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The head got a good wash after that to get rid of the valve paste


I learned from the shop that you can check valve straightness by letting the valve drop back into the seat. A valve in good condition should then bounce and dance into the valve seat, while a bend valve will just plonk into the seat.
All 8 valves dance like crazy.


This condom does help to prevent damaging the new valve stem seal while sliding it over the shaft
It comes with the seal set, but can be ordered separately as elring 192.929
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I used tool 10-204, but a fitting deep socked can be used also
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VW 2037 does also work with head off of engine
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1 done, 7 to do
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inner part of VW 2085 does help to slide in camshaft
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finally ordered new fuel hoses from cohline 2240.0400 and 2240.0600 (DIN 73379-3E) which will hopefully last way longer than the VW junk i used before.
DIN 73379 Type A is a very old type without yarn braiding
DIN 73379 Type B is the one with yarn brading, but is only temperature resistant up to 50°C (122°F)
DIN 73379 Type C has a steel wire brainding and is only temerature resistant up to 40°C (104°F)
DIN 73379-2A is inside NBR, then textile braiding, covered by CR outer rubber layer, temperature resistant up to 50°C (122°F)
DIN 73379-3E is FPM/ECO, then aramid braiding, covered by ECO outer rubber layer, temperature resistant up to 125°C (257°F)


oetiker clamps
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end of hoses are plugged with pneumatic fitting plugs to keep dirt out
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It's not jet to late to disassemble the head again, so one question:
Should I do a 3 angle valve job or keep it like it is?
As chance would have it, I brought home a Hunger VD1 tool from a shop closure a few days ago. Like this:
http://www.ludwig-hunger.de/deutsch/ludwig-hunger/...otive.html
Mine is specially equipped for VW air-cooled heads, but If I make an adapter, I think I can make this also work for water cooled heads.

Motivation says to skip this 3 angle job and trust the pro shop with the 1 angle job and continue with the transmission.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

Next step with the engine would be to mount the head to the small block.
I would love to do this on my bench, but I didn't figure out how to fix the block to the bench without putting stress on the oil pan screws while tightening the head screws.

So I will do this in the car which is only possible if the gearbox is there.
I will skip refreshing the distributor since I restored it not that long ago.
Also the alternator, because it is almost brand new.

Think hmmm, there was something, something why this whole thread even started ... Ah yes, the gearbox !!

exactly 4 Months after I started the tear-down: gearbox on my bench

transmission/gearbox is not covered in the haynes, so I will write some more details about that (from workshop manual, not my experience, which is zero, because I'm a gearbox first timer)
This description is for my older gearbox and would fit for gearboxes up to 8/21/85. Newer gearboxes may be different, especially at the clutch lever.

084 4 speed manual gearbox (code 5F)
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drain Oil
remove flanged shafts and mark sides, they are different
remove springs, shims and cones with flange shaft, also don't mix up sides
remove speedometer cog and guide
remove release bearing
remove clutch guide (keep screws, they are NLA, but can be put back in with loctite)
remove return spring
pull top bearing (plastic) bushing/cover
slide out clutch lever arm
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remove lots of case screws
spread case gently using the existing ribs next to the 2 guides (I did use big washers and did stack them) Pay attention to not touch and ruin the sealing surface
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clutch side:
remove shift-finger (still in place in my picture)
pull inner (gear-)stick (still in place in my picture)
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gear side:
pull diff
remove 3 covers for the gear locking mechanism (front left of gearbox)
pull springs/mechanism with circlip pliers, don't mix, every one should be put back into the hole it came from
remove ball bearing cover (left side of gearbox)
pull large adjustment washer (probably sticking to cover) (don't mix output and input shaft)
remove circlip from input and output shaft
pull small adjustment washer (don't mix output and input shaft)

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very easy so far.
to continue and to pull the reversing-lever, I need a PH4 screw driver (socket) I have to buy first.
And I will relocate my shop press from my "other" shop where the cars are parked (1/2 hour drive from home) back home into my tiny garage for quick access

First quick autopsy:
roller bearing running surface on the input shaft next to the clutch is in very good condition. That was important because otherwise this gearbox would be junk.
roller bearing surface on output shaft next to the diff is also in very good condition.
With the gear-stack resting upside down on the two ball bearings, at least one ball bearing makes horrible noise and does feel really rough. But could also be the sliders rubbing on the sliding sleeves, so I will repeat this test with input and output shaft separately, when sliders are removed.


Stay tuned, to be continued
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: need 084 manual gearbox advice - UPDATE started tear-down Reply with quote

"Special" tool did arrive.
PH4 screwdriver socket. Still a pain in the ass to remove the screw without damaging it.
still available from VW, but very pricey.
Newer gearboxes do have a TX45 replacement

Remove screw
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Pull reverse switch rod
Pull reversing lever
Pin (pictured on the left) sticking in the reverse switch rod, actuating the reverse lever is a loose fit and may fall down.
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Workflow till now was like the workshop manual suggested.
Next step is to pull the 2 bearings on the left side with a special Rillex bearing puller who does not damage the bearings.
I was looking for such a puller (or similar) since a long time, but was not able to find it.
So I have to improvise.

Since I will replace these bearings anyway, I thought to press both shaft equally out of the bearings, at least a few Millimeter, so that I can remove the plastic retainer and remove the bearing balls. Then I can pull the shafts out of the housing.
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Problem are the two remaining switch rods still blocked in the holes by the interlock.

Gearbox prepared for shop press:
Zip tie at reverse cogwheel to prevent it from falling out.
Pulled gear into second (to easy remove that middle switch rod)
Pulled part of the interlock mechanism for the reverse switch rod (with magnet) out of the reverse switch rod hole.
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When I was mentally ready to put it under the shop press, I realized that there were still too much gear oil in the box. Now I have to wait, till all is drained.
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