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zombiebug
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Won't start Reply with quote

Hello! I'm usually in the super beetle section and it's been a while. I've been helping a friend with a 78 bay w/ FI and we are stumped. He drove it without the engine bay seal and it got hot to melt the spark plug wires. He towed it home and for the past few months hasn't been able to start it.

The list:
He changed the plug wires
Changed the coil (Bosch blue oil filled)
Put an 009 dizzy on just to get it running and plugged vaccum line.
We gapped points as per the books.
We adjusted valves.
We set timing at 8 degrees BTDC.

While cranking the car with the intake off we had a squeak noise that seemed to be from pressure. If you turned the engine by hand it wouldn't happen. I was told that was the dash pot as it's still FI. So we put the intake on and hooked up all the tubes and cables. Now we are still not getting it to start and the squeak had gone away. We discovered we were getting a yellow spark when we check the plugs and what we had at the points while cranking. Changed back to the old coil still Bosch blue oil filled and now we have a blue spark but still won't start and now the squeak is back after multiple attempts at cranking. So with everything we listed what are we missing?

Thabk you! [/u]
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timvw7476
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

You can always try a teaspoon of gasoline in the S boot (air intake)
& see what happens.
My experience with melted sparkplug wires indicates bad stuff, the squeak could be a distorted cylinder head. It may run but it will also have at least one
sub-par cylinder & VWs need all cylinders all the time to function.
You can also do a compression check, the numbers can be anywhere from 85 ish
to 125 psi +, but if you've got one way off from the others, driving won't be fun.
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zombiebug
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Yea that's what I was thinking. We are getting plenty of gas because you can smell it as we're cranking. It's possible we have a bum cylinder but I've seen engines with three bum cylinders at least start. So I'm really confused why this motor won't light. I'll do compression checks and see what we have. Anything else I missed?
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Confirm the dwell angle is 47º +/- 3º.

Did you hook up the long tan wire from the coil to the ECU? That is what sensd the signal for the injectors to actually "fire".
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

What is your compression? An engine isn't going to start easy if the rings are stuck or the valves are hung up in their guides.

When you swap to an 009 distributor you need to rotate the wires 90° from the position they were for a DVDA or SVDA dizzy. Sorry can't remember which direction.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Have you determined if this is a hydraulic or solid lifter engine? You say you adjusted the valves. I believe 1978 buses came with hydraulic valves. There's a difference in the way they are adjusted.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

It is hard to imagine the engine bay getting hot enough to hurt the wires. Are the cooling flaps and thermostat there and working? Have you checked in the fan shroud and under the tin for mice nests?

Last edited by Wildthings on Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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zabo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

fyi - a missing engine bay seal would not cause it to overheat, certainly not so much as to melt the wires..

When you do the compression test change out the spark plugs as well.
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zombiebug
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Thank you all for your help. I will check the compression this weekend. We already changed the plugs.

Why do you have to. Rotate the wires?

I think there was a mouse nest in there originally? I'm not to sure but I know he got very hot to melt those wires. I know when we adjusted valves they were so very tight I had to take six full turns out to even get a feeler guage in. I think it was a combination of things that got the engine too hot.

How do. I tell the difference between hydrolic lifters and standard lifters? They looked like normal vw lifters to me. And I've been looking at lifters on a 74 super for seven years now.

I think that tan wore is hooked up? Both myself and the person who owns the bus is colorblind. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Well double check it soon. Thanks for all your help!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Do a search to find out how to tell the difference between the two types of lifters.

If you made 6 turns CCW on the adjuster to achieve.006 I’d say there’s a great chance that you actually do have hydraulics and now they are way out of adjustment.

A bug guy wouldn’t know that so don’t take it personally
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

zombiebug wrote:


Why do you have to. Rotate the wires?


The drive cog on the bottom of the shaft is 90° out compared to a DVDA or SVDA distributor. Don't know why

Quote:
I think there was a mouse nest in there originally? I'm not to sure but I know he got very hot to melt those wires. I know when we adjusted valves they were so very tight I had to take six full turns out to even get a feeler guage in. I think it was a combination of things that got the engine too hot.


Take a good peek down through the tin at each spark plug and use a mirror to look through the #4 hole to get a view of the oil cooler.

Quote:
How do. I tell the difference between hydrolic lifters and standard lifters? They looked like normal vw lifters to me. And I've been looking at lifters on a 74 super for seven years now.


Are the pushrod steel or aluminum? If steel you most likely have hydraulic lifters. The ends of both styles are steel, it is the tubing that is different. There is a level of finesse required to set hydraulic lifters, do some reading.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Lifters Hydraulic or Solid ?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

[quote="Wildthings"]
zombiebug wrote:



Quote:
I think there was a mouse nest in there originally? I'm not to sure but I know he got very hot to melt those wires. I know when we adjusted valves they were so very tight I had to take six full turns out to even get a feeler guage in. I think it was a combination of things that got the engine too hot.


Take a good peek down through the tin at each spark plug and use a mirror to look through the #4 hole to get a view of the oil cooler.



And if there was a mouse nest just suck it up and pull the motor, it's probably cooked.
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zombiebug
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

So we got it running! But now were stuck again. The car will start every time and race up on rpms then slowly go back down and die out. Once it dies you can start it right back up no problem but it does the same thing. If you try to idle it it goes down on rpms a little then shuts off like the key is hit.

With the ignition on the could has 12 volts. Once it starts it drops to around 4 volts then slowly comes back up to like 8. Once that moment where it dies instantly the volts goes back to 12.

Dwell varies between 80 and 67.

Fuel pump only had volts when engine is running. With just the ignition on it shows nothing but the second you crank it goes to 12 volts..
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Sounds like you have a big vacuum leak, likely a hose blew or was knocked off.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote


Link

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

zombiebug wrote:
So we got it running! But now were stuck again. The car will start every time and race up on rpms then slowly go back down and die out. Once it dies you can start it right back up no problem but it does the same thing. If you try to idle it it goes down on rpms a little then shuts off like the key is hit.

With the ignition on the could has 12 volts. Once it starts it drops to around 4 volts then slowly comes back up to like 8. Once that moment where it dies instantly the volts goes back to 12.

Dwell varies between 80 and 67.

Fuel pump only had volts when engine is running. With just the ignition on it shows nothing but the second you crank it goes to 12 volts..


The fuel pump on an injected engine first gets voltage from cranking, then switches to the relay once the engine starts

Search and read up on troubleshooting the double relay
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

zombiebug wrote:
With the ignition on the could has 12 volts. Once it starts it drops to around 4 volts then slowly comes back up to like 8. Once that moment where it dies instantly the volts goes back to 12.


You could have a bad ignition switch coupled with a set of points with a broken off wear block. Point gap is more important than dwell at lower rpms, with a high dwell and little gap you might be getting serious arcing across your points which leads to no spark.

Seeing 12volts across at the coil when the points are open is pretty meaningless as there is not current flow. Turn your engine so that the points are closed and see what the voltage is, you need to be reading the voltage on the #15 (12v+) side of the coil, not the side the wire from the points and condenser is hooked to.
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zombiebug
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

Abscat, that makes sense I've never dealt with electronic fuel pumps so I wasbt sure of it was worth noting. I will do some reading and get a fuel pressure test done today hopefully.

Wildthings, this is a new set of points and the block is in place. I will try that reading again today and double check with the points closed. I've always gone from the #15 side. It's the same for the supers.

Thank you all for your help! Should I be worried about the squeak?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Won't start Reply with quote

zombiebug wrote:

Thank you all for your help! Should I be worried about the squeak?


Don't know what the squeak is, but if it sounds like it may be coming from the alternator removing the belt would be the first thing to try.
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