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Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
First, this discussion has been going on since when I came back to VW buses in 2007. It is the same over and over again. The choices are the same other than now someone is repopping T4 pumps (which I suspect will end up the best solution unless Phil gets better. He is at the Mayo clinic right now with his wife, being treated. It breaks my heart because Phil is one of the most wonderful people in the world.

On the back end of of a T1 pump there are two protrusions. One holds the idler gear and one holds the drive gear. They are too long and have to be milled down in order to fit without hitting the cam bolts. When that area is milled away it weakens the support for the gears and they wander a little off their centerline. You either accept that or you don't. In a T4 factory pump the idler is held differently, One a T1 pump the gears chafe the cover. When the wear is excessive the plate can be replaced. On a T4 pump it must be totally disassembled and the internal guts clearance.

Unless the case is new the pump will probably be a little loose in the case. Look a the specs and you will see that the tolerances allow for that. Adding O-rings is the only way to 100% assure that the pump can't leak a little. That leakage is not a problem unless you need every drop of oil in a worn engine. HOWEVER on a late T4 motor it returns over pressure oil to the pump inlet. If the pump cavitates from air, that air gets reintroduced back to the pump where it goes round and round. That is why late bays have problems building oil pressure after building. There are other things that will help but that is the big one.



Yes...spot on!

This is the whole worry with a type 1 pump conversion.....that makes me stay with the type 4 pump as much as I can. If you have to clearance a type 1 pump for cam gear clearance.....and you usually do.....and especially on a Schadek with that thin inner boss wall.....the shafts can get loose.

This is why every time I start thinking about HAVING to go to a type 1 pump......the more I look at the Melling and/or similar cast iron pumps.

The case bore fit due to expansion differential can be just as easily solved with the same kind of mods you would have to do with an aluminum Schadek that is too small.

And.....just for brain fodder I am dropping by to see a buddy tonight who is one of the better CNC machinists and metalurgists I know......and ask him what it would take to machine 6mm out of my Melling along with its gears.

Looking at it....the outer boss without the plate is 16mm thick Shocked
I remember having to shim the shroud out by about 1/16" and it was within 1/32" of the shroud.
Taking 6mm out of that outer flange.....would still leave a plenty thick 10mm flange.

The inner part of the pump where the idle shaft is fit fine .....but the drive shaft boss really needs about .060" ground off.
Cast iron is stiff enough to handle that amount of adjustment without causing shaft movement.

Here is the cam bolt clearance on Melling out of the box set up for the type 4

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This shows the kind of long snout where the drive tang fits in. You can see the massive outer flange here.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

thanks for the photos Ray. Mellings are excellent pumps. Just wish they cast that model in Aluminum. I'd pick one up in a heart beat and drop viscosity to regulate the pressure.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
thanks for the photos Ray. Mellings are excellent pumps. Just wish they cast that model in Aluminum. I'd pick one up in a heart beat and drop viscosity to regulate the pressure.


Yes...the cast iron ones are REALLY tight and efficient too. The melling gears have maybe .0003" of gap between ends of gears and bore walls at the most. You can do that when the pump is iron and the gear is steal becase the expansion rate is almost identical. Ray
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Volswagon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
My compression ratio should be right at 7.8-8.0-1 range and I am runnning 93 octane gas.

Octane ratings: RON vs. SAE, etc.
That brings up another subject in which I have done a lot of "hillbilly" testing over the years with the 15K miles I put on Len's heads vs. the brief time with stock AMC 1.8's and the cracked OG heads I pulled off the Stephen's build.
While Amoco white 93 was available, that's all I put in it. When it became piss-yellow, I ran 89 summer and 87 winter.
These engines don't have high-enough comp to justify the extra expense. It takes more advance and throttle to do the same work on these hilly, curvy roads here, and would bog down on the hills (danger Will Robinson!).
The real trouble started when Kendall oil went from green to clear. After 9/11 (groan), everything changed.
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Last edited by Volswagon on Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

We had guys on brand new Harleys pulling in for FULL-SERVICE-priced Amoco white premium, saying it would literally void their warranties to run anything else.
The look on their faces seeing yellow "white" gas was priceless. This was around '02-'03. They spent more on chrome than I did on my whole Bus.
CHROME WON'T GET YOU HOME COWBOY!!!
Or powder coating for that matter. Is that powder on cylinder fins? Wonder why?
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RalphWiggam
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Ok folks. A little bit of an update on the oil pressure problem. Due to a very kind and generous member here (who I think might want to remain anonymous) I have a VERY nice OEM type 4 oil pump on hand to swap into my engine.

I got everything pulled apart in about 2 hours. Muffler off, exhaust off, heater hoses, alternator out, removed back tin pieces, fan off, fan housing off.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had installed my old pump with Loctite 518 so it was a little difficult to get out, but I finally worked it out without any damage to anything.

Here is my old one:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now that I know what to measure, I ran some crude measurements on my old pump. End play on the driven shaft was about .003". Gear lash was at least .005". Notice also how short the idler shaft is. Weird.

Here is the new one:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Nice pinned idler shaft. Gear lash is very good. End play is also very good.

I got everything reinstalled last night except the muffler. Cranked it over a bunch of times (with the coil disconnected) for about 10-15 sec until I was getting about 15psi on my pressure gauge. Connected the coil and it fired right up. Im reading about 45-50psi at about 1500rpm with the new pump. I didnt run it for very long, because Im still trying to fix one last oil leak out of a galley plug behind the fan.

I used Loctite 565 and teflon tape on that leaking galley plug. I needed to let the 565 cure for 24hrs. So tonight Ill crank it back up and see if it is still leaking. If not, Ill put the muffler on and take it for a run.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

OK folks I've got a solid update on the oil pressure situation. After I installed my new pump I spent a few days trying to chase down an oil leak from one of the galley plugs behind the fan. One single plug is leaking a tiny bit. I might have to re tap it one size up or something.

So after I got that leak as tight as I could, I took the bus out for a 40mile run during the week. Ambient was 84f. Cruising right around 3600rpm my oil temps never went over 225f. CHT was right at 325f. Unfortunately my oil pressures were less than the desired 10psi per 1000rpm (do we really mean 1 psi per 100rpm?). My pressures when the oil temp was at 225f at 3600 rpm was about 32psi. Better than before but not the 1psi per 100 that everyone says I need. I drive back home somewhat unhappy even though the new pump is keeping my oil a solid 10f cooler.

The next day I decided to swap back in my oem pressure relief piston. Thinking back to someone on here from another thread that said the t4s "high pressure" piston actually made their oil pressure worse. Also topped the oil off right to the top mark.

Took the bus for a highway run this morning. Same route as before. About 40 miles. Ambient was 79f. Well damnit whadaya know....oil temps never went over 215f. Best of all my oil pressure was always > 1psi per 100rpm!!!!!!!!!!! Even when I pulled off the highway to turn around and I sat at light's for a few minutes my pressures and temps were great!!! Once fully warmed up I always had about 1psi per 100rpm + 2psi. Ie...at 3500rpm I had 37psi. Yes!!!!!

Things different between the 2 runs:

Ambient was 5f cooler on second run
Topped oil off to high mark on dipstick (was at middle mark before)
Swapped in OEM oil relief piston for second run.

So with this new oil pump the engine is running at least 20f cooler on the highway than it was before. I also now have > 1psi per 100rpm oil pressure fully warmed up on the highway. Yes!!!!! Finally!

Endless thanks to the member who graciously donated the heart for this recent transplant!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

good work. Something is still a little worn in the engine, maybe lifter bores, but it is a 45 year old car and will give you many miles of use to come.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Good work!

I would say that the 5*F is not significant unless you are at an ambient above about 95-98F.

The extra half quart of oil is likely not a cooling issue.

The piston alone...which you had tried before but with other pumps was not the fix. The new-ish pump alone is also not a complete fix.

Together....you get a close to stock fix.

I have been under this impression for some time that type 4 oil system as a "unit" is a fairly carefully tuned system. When adding new parts liek a much higher volume oil pump ....the whole system needs to be re-tuned somehow.

Likewise going to a non-stock piston wit ha stock pump...the whole system needs to be retuned somehow.

I agree...that its going to be just fine...but yes....there is something inside that is just at the top end of spec....and its most probably the combination of the rod side clearance and oil clearance on the rod bearings. These are one of the largest pressure loss points.

The lifter bores....with solid lifters...unless the out of tolerance is maxed out...I have found those not to be as huge of source of pressure loss as many stipulate.
Its a contributing factor...sure....but not huge until they get way over the top....like pushing close to .0035" total (meaning about .00175" on each side of the lifter in the bore)....and this is another one of those tolerances whose wear limit deceives people. Some people go ahead and use a case that is close to the wear limit because they "figure"...that if VW said thats teh limit...its ok to use it even if its not ideal.

The book lists wear LIMIT of .0047"...which is HUGE. The wear limit on a part like the lifter to bore tolerance does not really reflect its "other" effects on oil pressure....but mainly that being beyond the wear tolerance is a mechanical function accuracy issue.

Minimum lifter to bore clearance listed for solids at least...is .0008" and maximum is .0023". And...thats a pretty good spec. Thats an oil clearance that is roughly as tight as main and rod bearing clearance.

And....at .0023" that means you have .00115 on each side of the lifter in the bore. I have found that with other parts that affect oil pressure optimized....meaning.....parts that you CAN optimize....like the oil pump specs and main, rod and cam bearing tolerances....you can have lifter bore tolerances right at the maximum .0023"...and have no issues with oil pressure.

And for peace of mind...if you want to......you can actually easily check and verify if you are over the top on lifter bore diameter by pulling loose one rocker set and pushrods....pulling the PR tubes....and carefully taking a telescopic gauge and micrometer...and checking the lifter bore diameter....then measure the lifter.

If you wanted to do that...and you found them to be within that .0023" spec...lifter to bore....then that finally tells you that its probably the rod bearings. And this is the most common problem I have seen.

But its good enough that you are going to be just fine from what I see. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

I did not have the under cylinder tins in place during those 2 runs because I was waiting to retorque the exhaust nuts again. I just put those in place with all of the heater tubing.

Has anyone ever verified temp differences regarding the under cylinder tins on the highway?

I assume VW knew what they were doing when they designed them.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
I did not have the under cylinder tins in place during those 2 runs because I was waiting to retorque the exhaust nuts again. I just put those in place with all of the heater tubing.

Has anyone ever verified temp differences regarding the under cylinder tins on the highway?

I assume VW knew what they were doing when they designed them.


Oh its a serious difference leaving them out. Not on heads or oil temp.....but in overheating the underside of the cylinders and causing warpage to their bores.

Look closely. The ONLY thing forcing cooling air around the bottom of the cylinder is the lower deflector ppates. Without out those the air from above just goes straight down and you get no cooling on the underside of the cylinder.


Oh....wait....do you mean the sled tins? If so.....its not a huge measureable rise in temp. If you are oj a long high speed drive for say 3-4 hours straight.....you can see some rise in overall temps of surrounding sheet metal and engine compartment because that heated air is not ducted out the back and away.....but I have never see oil or head temps go up.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

The sled tins really do nothing other than protect the push rod tubes from rocks and debri. JR did extensive testing on this and found that head temps actually dropped by 5 degrees without them. He modified his to make them rock guards. I did the same by drilling a couple hundred holes in both sides of the tins before getting them powder coated. As Ray stated the under cylinder tins are a totally different story and absolutely essential.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Yes, I was refering to the sled tins.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Been meaning to post this pic of my oil filter standoff for quite awhile to get some feedback from the experts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


See the mismatch in the lower port? Is that normal? This was taken during my rebuild. When I saw it, I took a dremel to it and cleaned it up and made the port nice and smooth. Obviously cleaned it very well with hot soap and water and gun cleaning brushes afterwards.

Has anyone seen this before? Should I have left it like it was?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

I am at a loss - was that a casting error?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

I don't think it is a big deal, cleaning it up a bit shouldn't have hurt anything, maybe you will get a percent or two better oil flow?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I don't think it is a big deal, cleaning it up a bit shouldn't have hurt anything, maybe you will get a percent or two better oil flow?


Do you know if the bottom port is coming from the filter or going to it?

For awhile I was thinking that cleaning it up with the dremel might have been what was affecting my oil pressure. Increasing the flow and lowering the pressure....but looking at the oil flow diagram the pressure sensor is after the filter (I think) so that theory wouldnt really hold up.

Now Im just more curious to see if this mismatch was on purpose or my casting had an error in it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
I don't think it is a big deal, cleaning it up a bit shouldn't have hurt anything, maybe you will get a percent or two better oil flow?


Do you know if the bottom port is coming from the filter or going to it?

For awhile I was thinking that cleaning it up with the dremel might have been what was affecting my oil pressure. Increasing the flow and lowering the pressure....but looking at the oil flow diagram the pressure sensor is after the filter (I think) so that theory wouldnt really hold up.

Now Im just more curious to see if this mismatch was on purpose or my casting had an error in it.


I believe the upper hole is the outlet back to the engine, it should be connected to the nipple in the center of the filter head.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders Reply with quote

Any of the expert's on here want to weigh in on the condition of these spark plugs? They have about 650 break in miles on them. I changed them out about a week ago for a fresh set.


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