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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kourt wrote: |
Here's some comparison between the 1985 VW Vanagon and the 1982 Audi 5000 Turbo automatic transmissions. You can click on each photo and it should enlarge in a separate window, giving you the benefit of greater detail.
I've removed the paper gaskets and the outer plate to expose the reverse planetary ring gear. The Audi ring gear hub sits a bit proud and is designed for a 087 differential, so it is useless; I'll have to buy the proper hub from German Transaxle, part number 090 323 370, for a 26 tooth double sun gear. |
Hello Kourt
The photo of the 1985 shows the same part # 090 323 370 already installed. Why do you need to buy it if you could have just used the part from the 1985?
I'm asking because I'm just starting the rebuild on my wife's 1991 Carat and am tearing down a transmission from a 1984 Audi 5000T
Cheers
Gruppe B |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kourt wrote: |
Here's some comparison between the 1985 VW Vanagon and the 1982 Audi 5000 Turbo automatic transmissions. You can click on each photo and it should enlarge in a separate window, giving you the benefit of greater detail.
I've removed the paper gaskets and the outer plate to expose the reverse planetary ring gear. The Audi ring gear hub sits a bit proud and is designed for a 087 differential, so it is useless; I'll have to buy the proper hub from German Transaxle, part number 090 323 370, for a 26 tooth double sun gear. |
Hello Kourt
The photo of the 1985 shows the same part # 090 323 370 already installed. Why do you need to buy it if you could have just used the part from the 1985?
I'm asking because I'm just starting the rebuild on my wife's 1991 Carat and am tearing down a transmission from a 1984 Audi 5000T
Cheers
Gruppe B |
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Howdy,
The 1985 Vanagon shows 090 323 373, which will not mate with Audi 5000 internals. That's why you have to buy the named ring gear.
kourt |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kourt wrote: |
Let's build our Vanagon automatic transmission with Audi 5000 Turbo internals.
Step 5: Decide which direct drum you wish to use. On the basis of available replacement parts and future availability, the Vanagon direct drum is most suitable. It accepts 17 tooth steels. The Audi 5000 Turbo direct drum accepts 53 tooth steels that are no longer available. Do not buy the 087 53 tooth steels and think they will fit--they won't. The Audi drum has heat tempered steel ears. It will accept the 17 tooth steels for the Vanagon drum, or you can reuse the original 53 tooth steels if they are in good condition.
kourt |
Correction (When using the LATER Audi 5000T transmission),
If building a 5000T enhanced transmission you must use the Audi 5000T direct drum because the Turbo Shell will not connect to the Vanagon direct drum.
Above is a photo of the Audi 5000T direct drum and 5000T shell connected together
Above is a photo of the Audi 5000T direct drum and the Vanagon shell that cannot connect. The Vanagon direct drum and shell is narrower on the outside preventing using the Vanagon direct drum from being compatible with the Audi upgrade.
None of the Vanagon frictions and steels will work with the later Audi 5000T direct drum as they are larger. I reused the 5000T frictions as I didn't order them.
You will also have to use the Audi 5000T 2nd gear brake band piston as the rod that goes to the brake band is shorter to compensate for the larger direct drum.
Vanagon brake band piston on left 1984 Audi 5000T on right
No criticism Kourt, your 1982 5000T is just different than the 1984 5000T that I am using. This thread is absolutely incredible, I'm just adding addition info where I can. |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Assembly complete!
Wish me luck tomorrow when the transmission goes back in the Carat 
So much to learn, trying very hard not to screw up and reading endless threads on all parts of the transmission
Thanks again Kourt and all other posters for your hard work documenting all of this |
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Thanks for documenting this!
My turbo transaxle is running strong, 20,000 miles later.
kourt |
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Reading through this thread planning the rebuild of my 1987 Auto.
Kourt - any insight into the 1987 Audi 5000 Turbo Automatic? It looks like most documented here are earlier models (85 and earlier). I imagine no issue going with the 87, but just curious.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Looks like the best source for rebuilding a solid automatic out there.
_________________
<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Howdy,
I can only assume that, as long as it has not been swapped sometime in its life, that 87 Audi turbo automatic should have the internals to beef up a Vanagon automatic. Give it a shot. Everything you need should be in this thread.
Good luck; keep us posted.
kourt |
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| kourt wrote: |
Howdy,
I can only assume that, as long as it has not been swapped sometime in its life, that 87 Audi turbo automatic should have the internals to beef up a Vanagon automatic. Give it a shot. Everything you need should be in this thread.
Good luck; keep us posted.
kourt |
Thanks Kourt. I just finished doing my 2.0ABA motor swap, and low and behold the trans went out shortly after. Rebuilding a motor for the first time was fun. Rebuilding an automatic transmission should be great fun as well 
_________________
<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| kourt wrote: |
Let's build our Vanagon automatic transmission with Audi 5000 Turbo internals.
This post can also be used to guide the rebuild of a normal Vanagon automatic transmission.
Parts list:
Master rebuild kit for Vanagon 090
(available from various vendors)
Makco Transmission Parts (they ship a Transtar 090 Vanagon kit with standard duty steels and frictions)
http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/65006D.html
This is a good kit with basically everything you would need to rebuild one transaxle, except for pistons, brake band, and return spring. The kit contains enough extra steels and frictions to rebuild the forward drum to the Audi 5000 Turbo specifications. These kits come with Alto or Exedy frictions, and Raybestos or generic steels. For all transmissions, the steels are the same thickness, but the thicker frictions are to be installed in the direct/reverse drum. The thinner frictions are installed in the forward drum. I like this kit because it also contains a cork differential pan gasket (a really good gasket for bent or rusty differential pans) and a torque converter seal that is metal-clad on its outside diameter, which provides a more snug fit and reduces the chance of failure.
I would also buy a new return spring from Makco:
http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/A65974A.html
Pistons, band, and Raybestos frictions from http://wittrans.com:
Qty 4, Part # 65106, Friction, 010/087/089/090 Direct Clutch (.090" ) (4.75" OD) 1975-Up (Raybestos)
Qty 5, Part # 65106B, Friction, 010/087/089/090 Forward Clutch (.061" )(4.75" OD)(W/1 Tooth Missing) 1975-Up (Raybestos)
Qty 1, Part # N65022, BAND, 010,087,089,090
Qty 1, Part # A65962A, Piston, 010/087/089/090 1st Interm Clu(W/Checkk Ball)(Molded Rubber) 1983-91
Qty 1, Part # A65965, Piston, 010/087/089/090 Direct Clutch
Qty1, Part # A65964, Piston, 010/087/089/090 Forward Clutch (Molded Rubber) 1975-91
Many people prefer the Raybestos brand frictions, so I'm listing those here, plus a good source for pistons and the brake band.
The 2nd gear brake band piston should simply be regasketed and reinstalled. Gaskets are provided in the Makco master rebuild kit listed above.
The valve body for the Vanagon is suitable. The accumulator piston can either be steel (Audi) or plastic (Vanagon).
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Kourt - if I understand your shopping list post correctly, these parts could be used to either A) Rebuild the stock vanagon transmission, or B) to rebuild the 5000 turbo internals to be used in a Vanagon transmission housing. Is this correct?
Also, any updates to this list from when it was assembled 3 years ago?
_________________
<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15143
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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you can still get the pistons at a closeout price if you look
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VW-010-Piston-Kit-W-Bleed-Valve-K79971A/291872699584
$35/shipped NEW VW: 010 Piston Kit W/Bleed Valve K79971A
| Quote: |
NEW VW: 010 Piston Kit with Low/Reverse (w/ Bleed Valve) 3 pcs K79971A
Includes:
VW010: Low/Reverse (w/ Bleed Valve) Piston
VW010: Forward Piston
VW010: Direct Piston |
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| Abscate wrote: |
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Thanks for that info Dan. At this point I'm trying to decide if I want to just rebuild the Vanagon trans or do the 5000T upgrade.
Looks like about $300 worth of rebuild parts, and the only 5000t transmission I have found thus far is another $300.
Worth the extra $300? Probably.
_________________
<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15143
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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$300 for a 5000T transmission is a good price.
they didn't make all too many of those cars in 2wd turbo automatic.
then you have to find one that didn't just get crushed..
I'd buy it up for $300.
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
$300 for a 5000T transmission is a good price.
they didn't make all too many of those cars in 2wd turbo automatic.
then you have to find one that didn't just get crushed..
I'd buy it up for $300. |
Thanks for the input. I thought the price sounded reasonable as well. It's not too far from me either, and the car is definitely not crushed.
_________________
<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
CHC Top Thread
Engine Conversion Thread (2.0 ABA Swap)
ABA Swap - Image Gallery
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Howdy,
The Vanagon 090 Master rebuild kits sold by Makco and others will cover most of the necessary parts. Those kits will always have more parts than is necessary--they put a few extra bits in them to cover variances.
I wanted to build the highest grade possible, so I found Raybestos frictions and steels at Wittrans.com, and they also had some special parts to build up the Audi Turbo transmission drums. I think I documented all that in my rebuild post.
I have driven the turbo-enhanced Vanagon automatic transaxle over 25,000 miles since the rebuild with no problems. That includes several trips to the mountain west, climbing passes with four guys and all our mountaineering gear, in the summer. Hard and fast driving. I dropped the AT oil pan last winter and found no artifacts in the filter, which was another good sign.
I've been very pleased with the rebuild. Also--no leaks!
kourt |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Woohoo!
Turbo upgrade transmission rebuild has been a resounding success. Thanks again Kourt for creating this thread, it guided me through the whole process and allowed me to successfully rebuild and upgrade the transmission.
I'll update some additional information that I found with the later 5000Turbo transmission (1984+). Definitely worth the extra work.
Thanks again Kourt, I owe you some beer |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| h00drat wrote: |
Reading through this thread planning the rebuild of my 1987 Auto.
Kourt - any insight into the 1987 Audi 5000 Turbo Automatic? It looks like most documented here are earlier models (85 and earlier). I imagine no issue going with the 87, but just curious.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Looks like the best source for rebuilding a solid automatic out there. |
The 87 is an easier Transmission to use for the swap and has even bigger internal frictions for the 5000turbo direct drum which will be used. You will also not have to buy a specific ring gear hub that Kourt needed for the 82 Turbo as the Vanagon ring gear hub is a direct swap with the later 5000Turbo Transmission. I'll post up the photos this weekend showing what I'm trying to describe |
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ALIKA T3
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vwhammer
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Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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So in this swap/upgrade doesn't the gear ratios change to that of the Audi 5000T?
From what I could tell on the webs, the 5000 has a 2.55:1 first gear whereas the Vanagon's first is 2.71:1
I, for one, prefer the lower gear ratio (higher numerically for those that get confused about this)
This is likely the only reason that I might not upgrade to the 5000 bits.
However, I have a high mileage van that is getting an ABA swap and thought beefing up the trans might be a good idea since I am thinking about a mild turbo build once I get the van up and running.
For those that do mildly technical stuff in their 2wd van the lower gear ratio would be better.
Maybe with a fair bit more horsepower and a properly cooled auto trans the differences in gear ratios would be hardly noticeable.
However, it is my opinion that good gearing is the only real solution for control on technical terrain no matter how much HP or TQ you have. |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15143
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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only the R&Ps differ between the Automatics..
that impacts the final gear ratios.
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