Build a 2 liter from a VW or start with a T4?

[Rmvr53]

What (and why) would the differences be in building a 2 liter engine up from a VW base (72/94mm bore/stroke and work the case) vs just starting with a 2 liter T4 engine. This is going in a vintage Sports Racer. It needs to stay under (just under) 2L.

thanks for the input

Bill

[jpaull]

You might as well post a political debate or a "Which oil is best" thread.

[Rmvr53]

and to add the proverbial fuel to the fire, I don't want to go broke building nor maintaining it...

Bill

[modok]

All engines like this cost pretty much the same to build IMO, about 2000$ plus labor.
If you have somebody else do all the labor then you are at their mercy, for better or worse.

[DeathBySnuSnu]

Well..... a type 1 would be a lot cheaper and there are plenty aftermarket parts for it.
A type 4 is more robust. Heavier case, more cooling fin area. More expensive and less available hot rod aftermarket.
I suppose you could get comparable power from each. The cross flow head of the type 4 may have more potential......if the parts and research are available.
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[modok]

Will it be high compression for race gas?

[bugguy1967]

The heads are gonna be the most expensive parts for the T4 engine. Whereas a good set costs $1000 for a T1, T4s will probably set you back $2000 for a properly done set by a reputable T4 head guy. Notice I said T4 head guy.
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"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"

[oprn]

Check out Brothers, they supplied me with a set of rebuilt type 4 heads for just under 1K with some mild porting and chamber work. They have a good reputation.


I will see this winter how prices compare. I just finished doing up a mild type 4 for our street Buggy and I need to refresh a type 1 engine for our sand rail this winter. It will be a mild build too.


The type 4 cost me in the range of $2500 with a switch to Webers and a home built exhaust system. There are a few items that are more money than the type 1, exhaust is a big one. Heads are a bit more too.

[Rmvr53]

modok - its going to be a race gas engine, but not high octane. I only run 100 (usually AV Gas) in my FV. The biggest drawback I am going to have is what a 2 liter T1 or T4 is going to give me HP wise. At just under 2 liter I am competing with 2 liter Porsche 6 cyl, Lotus Twin-cams , BDA's and the like. So building up the VW engine is more for a "labor of love" (and I know/can afford to work on them)

Bill

[Wreck]

A type 1 is easier and most likely work out cheaper , a good exhaust is also another expensive part of a hi performance type4 . plus the cooling system .


If you decide to go down the type4 route, Heads wise I would use AA 2 lt 914 bare castings and get Fat to work them over with good valves etc . A friend did some work on a SuperVee (yellow Zink Z11) not much is known about the engine other then it is 1970cc built by Fat .It pulled 162hp at the wheels with 44 idf's (no fan cooling system) .Ask a few old Supervee racers who was the top engine builder and speak to them about a reliable engine .

[oprn]

As this is road racing (hours of hard running as opposed to seconds on the drag strip) I will speculate that the type 4 will cost a bit more initially perhaps but will cost less in the long run due to it's superior durability and cooling.

[nextgen]

As mentioned if you are going to have to buy parts for the Type 4 other then just rebuild it, like bearings, and valve job.. THe T-1 will be less if both need the same parts replace, like heads.

Seeing you are talking T-4 2.0 you already will have the 71 mm crank and and rods, close to your wanting 72mm.

I would say as Wreck said, if it is going to be raced, spend the extra money and go T-4 All use a 2.0 case so think 914 and bus the engine was made for racing and lasting. With a T-1 you are making an engine larger then intended, the 2.0 was a stock engine.

Little known fact the 914 2.0 was almost as fast as the 916 6 cyl which was also a 2.0 one year the 916 won 11 out of 12 racers. It is only faster on top end.

For racing drop by the 914 NG.
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[modok]

Yeah I guess the type-4 has a stronger crank and easier cooling.
But if it's a labor of love....just go with the one you love the most.
You're kind of IN luck, since now you can get 914 re-production heads, and CB panchito heads. Which one has more power potential? I don't know they are both pretty darn nice

[Rmvr53]

"Labor of Love" is kinda pointed at either T1 or T4 (going Volkswagon). If I can get a reliable 130-150 out of the T4 I may go that way as I have a feeling that kind of HP out of a T1 isn't going to be all that reliable. So as said, I'd pay more up front but not have the back-end maintenance/upkeep costs. I already have both a T1 and T4 case sitting on the shelf But they are bare cases. I don't remember what the T4 case is but the T1 is an AH case. Does the T4 need the baffling like we put in the T1 in the Vee?

[modok]

Probably similar. Some of the 914 engines had baffles, but if they are good design or not, I don't really know.

[Rome]

[Wreck]

[nextgen]

Hey Roland, if someone is going to correct me I am happy to hear from you, Ha.

Been a while!!!

RMV53 All the T-4 cases are the same-- Aluminum not Magnesium and so even if you get a 1.7 engine the case is the same the a 100 -110 hp stock 2.0 uses.
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[Steve Arndt]

[nextgen]

Steve got to add that to the T-4 storage part of my brain.

I guess they had a lot of magnesium from all the T-1s . Or maybe they figured a two ton bus needed something stronger then magnesium??
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The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
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