Ghia Subaru engine swap

[Evil_Fiz]

So where are we today with this project?

Since I am rappelling down the same rabbit hole, I'll throw these question out to those in the know.
- What $$$ is involved in a "reliable" Type 1 motor with 150 - 160ish HP?
- what CCs would this motor be and what would it be composed of?
- Assume only high quality parts are used.

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Emil
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“…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68

See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted

[c21darrel]

A reliable, 150/160 is a lot of HP to expect from what originally was less than 50.
I probably have close to 120 hp in my 2017cc (78.2X90.5) type one. It is pretty reliable. Its fairly quick (for about 250 yards ). It was not cheap to build. I did a ton of time researching and then $$ buying quality parts. I would not compare it to my reliable daily driver (2016 Tacoma). Its not close. My dog has a 98 4Runner because I wont let her and her pals in my Tacoma. Her 4Runner is still more reliable. Im not sure its possible to make 1930's technology compete with 2000's. VW's create heat, bigger motors can make more heat. There is no aircooled new car is there?
You can build a powerful engine that will last and get 100,000 miles, it will cost probably $6K or more. You can turbo or supercharge but neither will increase longevity or reliabiity. I dont know much about injection, electronic ignitions, crank trigger... but that may help reliability. It would be minimum 2110cc, new case, counter weight german crank, H-beam rods all parts dynamically balanced. I like Dellortos but good Webers, maybe IDA's. Quality polished/ported heads, cam/lifters that matches combo. Probably going to need a seperate oil cooler outside the shroud. 1.75 merged exhaust. You still need a trans. You will be into it for $6-$8K. The subi (i have only driven one once, and it was in a bus) may be cheaper, more hp and more reliable. It wont have soul tho.
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GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
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[Evil_Fiz]

Thanks for the feedback Darrel, it matches with what I already suspected. The engine not having soul is the least of my ethereal problems. By the time I'm done with all the mods I have planned my Ghia will qualify to be the conductor on the Hell Express.

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Emil
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“…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68

See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted

[Larmo63]

I believe a German car should have a German engine. The only VW product I would even remotely consider putting a Subaru engine in is a Westfalia Vanagon camper.

A Ghia with a Subaru engine isn't my cup 'o tea.

[crazy tarzan]

I too love the idea of an original style engine in a vw. Then reality and my desire for fun slap me in the face .

At least with a planned suby swap I'll still be working with a flat 4 (or 6).

Cheaper than porsche.

Cheaper than air cooled at same power levels.

Longer life, less servicing, possibility of real heat (and a/c).

And no, I'm not going to keep the 'suby rumble' -- I'm not trying to emulate a suby.

[dlamyle]

[Sketchy_1]

Determine your desired cost versus power levels that you are aiming for. If you want near 200 then I would go with the EJ251/EJ253 route. The newest Phase I EJ22's are almost 2 decades old. You have room in the Ghia engine compartment that you don't in a beetle so you have more engine options. If you want more than 200 but less than 300 then go with the EG/EZ series 6 cylinders these will be your best bang for buck due to JDM / USDM availability and they are only about 3/4" longer than EJ. All these engines can be had for less than $1000.

Beyond 300HP you are looking at turbo engines, which will drive the cost up. EJ205/EJ207/EJ255/EJ257...not going to mention the EJ22T. These are very reliable engines especially when using quality parts like dlamyle has in his build. There is a ton of aftermarket support and can easily hit near 400HP on stock internals. Beyond that you are going to have a hard time putting power to pavement.

I wouldn't expect much support here due to either inexperience with conversions, Subaru engines in general or just the purism factor. It is what it is, different strokes. You are better off over at STF or the Subaru Powered Volkswagens FB page for support in your build. I am currently building AWD 69 Convertible Ghia with an STi driveline. I'll only come here for the Ghia related information which is helpful. PM me with any Subaru engine questions you have. Good luck.
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69' Karmann Ghia Convertible AWD Project (FB Build) (STF Build)

[Larmo63]

[quote="dlamyle"]

[Evil_Fiz]

^^^ GO Huntress!
I have been following your work over on STF. Impressive stuff I can only dream of doing...for now.
Since you offered, Factory ECU or MS3 or ??? This question keeps me up at night.

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Emil
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“…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68

See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted

[Sketchy_1]

[Evil_Fiz]

Thanks for the feedback. That is the best explanation and data I have seen in support of the factory ECU. I will be sticking close to stock HP with the engine I eventually settle on for simplicity and reliability. The car will be driven by my wife and daughter mostly so hi HP is not needed. I am leaning heavily towards an EZ30R for the extra "Umph" at lower engine stress levels.

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Emil
_________________
“…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68

See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted

[Ghia_SIngh]

Hello All, its been a while since I started this post. And as most builds go... some things came up and here I go again.

I appreciate all the feedback, comments, criticism, insights, get your head out of the clouds, etc.

When I decided to go down the Subi swap route... I simply didn't know what i didn't know. I did a lot of research and came to the conclusion (that many of you alluded too) that it is going to cost a few $$$. Close to about $5,000 for engine swap... and another $1,500 if you decide to do transmission as well.

So i decided to not do the swap and run it stock. Have a friend who's going to add some performance mods to it soon. As I realized that, although I can take on some projects, the engine is simply not not something I'm comfortable messing with.

But for those of you whom are still considering it... I'm sharing some of my notes. I was looking at using a donor car to get as many of the parts as possible. Hopefully this will provide some insights as you go down this path.


LINKS
http://www.rjes.com

ENGINE PREFERRED:
EJ 22 (221 or 222) from 1997 - 1998


Engine: 1990-1999 Legacy SOHC EJ22
Beginning in the 1997 model year, the 2.2-litre engine for 1997 Legacy and Impreza models had internal and external changes that yield an approximately 10% increase in power and 3% increase in fuel economy.

Engine: 2000-2005 Legacy SOHC EJ25
* Subaru are all opposed flat 4 or 6 cylinder configuration, water cooled, and of all aluminium construction
* single or double overhead cam designs (SOHC or DOHC)
* basic four cylinder ‘long block’ can be made to fit into just about any VW neatly
*
Note 1: The work involved in modifying the additional chassis cross member in a late bay could be avoided by using an adaptor plate and flywheel instead of an RJES bell housing to join the engine and gearbox together. See Bell Housing vs Adaptor plate FAQ’s. IMPORTANT: http://www.rjes.com/html/bellhousing_faq_s.html#bhfaq3
*
Based on previous website FAQ it is best to use the Bell Housing.

MY00 SOHC EJ25 (Legacy/Liberty/Outback)
MY00 SOHC EJ25 (Legacy/Liberty/Outback)

Transmission:
* I think flywheels come in auto, N/A & Turbo. You can choose which ever one you like so long as you get the matching clutch.


* Turbo clutches are pull to release and NA clutch are push to release.
Basically you want any NA flywheel and clutch from any EJ engine


Cooling System:
* there is no mechanically simple way to install a modern engine in a VW which was originally designed to be air cooled – all will require either a radiator, dry sump oil system, major bodywork modifications or more.
* Modified oil sump will be needed to gain ground clearance. Fabricated not recommended as you'll loose oil capacity. rjes.com is working on one that has the full capacity that will simply bolt on.



Wiring:
* Separating out the wiring required to make an ‘engine only’ harness is the most common way of getting the Subaru engine management system running in a VW.
* there are people who can build your harness for you, sell you instructions, or help with any problems you may have
* They all have OBD II LINK diagnostic systems built in[list=][/list]

[Ghia_SIngh]

PARTS REQUIRED FROM DONOR SUBARU CAR

This list assumes a manual transmission donor car, unless stated otherwise. See Removal of Parts From Donor Subarupage for a detailed guide to what parts to remove from the engine donor car.

Subaru engine, complete with:
* Compression test results, if you want to significantly increase the chances that your engine is a good one. Ask a potential supplier for them, if they don’t volunteer the info. It’s not unreasonable!
* Mount rubbers, complete with nuts and washers to attach to crossmember
* Flywheel - you’ll need to source one separately if an automatic donor - see Engine Conversion from Automatic Spec to Manual
* Clutch pressure plate (if you want to re-use the clutch rather than fit a new one)
* Clutch release bearing (if from a manual donor and you want to re-use the clutch rather than fit a new one)
* Alternator, including wiring with alternator connectors.
* Clutch inspection hole cover
* A/C compressor and pipes (if required - not fitted to all Subaru's, not needed in most UK spec VW’’s) Power steering pump, fluid reservoir and pipes (if required)
* Power steering pump bracket if pump not to be supplied (needed for alternator belt tensioner)
* All bellhousing to engine bolts, from the same engine
* Airflow meter
* Induction pipe between throttle body and airflow meter
* Engine harness
* Lambda sensor
* Starter Motor from a manual Subaru - preferably a direct drive one if you get a choice. Direct drive may be essential for conversions space is limited, such as a late bay.
* Exhaust header? - optional, depending on what you intend to do with the exhaust.



Engine ECU

* Chassis Harness from behind dash

* Cluster of three relays on a steel bracket behind the dash. One always has a green connector

* Electronic ignition module (small black box attached to the centre of the bulkhead, just above the gearbox) - not fitted to 1999 onwards models, as coils fired directly from the ECU.

Immobiliser:
If your donor Subaru has a Transponder Key Immobiliser system, these are not removable. You must get the following parts from the same donor, as they are a matched set:
transponder ECU
ignition barrel antenna
key (or the transponder chip from within the key)

Note - If you get all of the above except the key / transponder, it is possible (although not cheap) to have a Subaru dealer program your matching ECU and immobiliser ECU to accept a new key. To do so they will need the complete engine and engine management system, fully connected up and working, plus either the VIN and registration number of the original Subaru, or the immobiliser code as supplier on metal key ring tags when the Subaru was new. Without this, the ECU and immobiliser ECU are useless. Also note that a dealer may refuse to connect his diagnostic gear to a VW, or to a pile of wires connected to an engine, which is not unreasonable!

Also get any other engine bay components for other Subaru features which you may be considering using in your VW (including any relevant wiring), such as the following:
* Air filter box
* Exhaust manifold
* Air conditioning compressor, hoses, condensor, reciever drier and electrical connectors, etc
* Power steering pump, hoses and reservoir
* Cruise control servo, etc



AUTOMATIC ENGINES
...if your engine came from an automatic transmission donor car, you will also need to source the following:
* Flywheel
* Flywheel to crank bolts (we stock these - please ask)
* Clutch pressure plate
* Manual transmission starter motor
* Cam belt guide (assuming your crank case has the table bosses to fit one)[/u]

[Peter D.]

Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense from a cost perspective unless you're Jay Leno... but I would love to drive one.

I'm upgrading my '64 from a 1200 to a 1776. That should give it plenty of oomph for the sunny and dry days that I'll be able to enjoy it living in the Northeast. Nothing like the sound and smell of a leaky, air-cooled VW motor.
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2019 Golf Alltrack, '65 Ghia Coupe Restoration in Progress