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scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2645 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: points spring mount location? |
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Here's one I've never seen mentioned before.
I just replaced the condenser in my Bosch 4R5. In order to get the old one out I had to remove the points so I could get the small bolt out and removed the circle ring connector from the bolt.
This bolt goes through a (very) small black 'tower' attached to the points. The end of the points spring slides over the bolt that goes through the tower.
Now of course when I removed it I didn't notice on which side of the tower the bolt spring is supposed to go.
It doesn't seem to reach the outer side of the tower, but does reach the inner side. But on the inner side there seems to be too much spring pressure against the points arm. I gapped the points, but the car now won't start at all.
If the spring is supposed to fit on the outside of the tower there will be less spring pressure, which i believe would be normal, and maybe then the car will start(?) _________________ If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them on some level there's no rational grounds for it.
D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Does this help?
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2645 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Yes, it does.
Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.
Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on. _________________ If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them on some level there's no rational grounds for it.
D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Are either of the wires touching the body? if so they will ground the points. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5305 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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I was going to say it looks like your condenser wire is grounding on the body. Notice how on Glenns picture the condenser wire is on the inside of the mounting bolt? _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. - Michael Caine |
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scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2645 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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I did notice it when you both mentioned it. Got pretty excited, too. How simple a fix! Yay!
I had assumed that the wire's insulation would prevent grounding to the body.
I just went outside and put the lead to the coil on the inside, as shown in Glenn's picture. I also made sure that the wire connector to the condenser and both wires were not touching the body of the distributor anywhere.
Incidentally, the way I got the distributor, both wires were mounted to the outside, and it ran great until the intermittent missing began this past Monday.
I even put the original condenser back in, so now everything is as it was the last time the car started. Points gapped. And yes, the rotor is back in place.
The car still doesn't start. Not even a hint of ignition. Just cranking. _________________ If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them on some level there's no rational grounds for it.
D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Sharp64 wrote: |
I was going to say it looks like your condenser wire is grounding on the body. Notice how on Glenns picture the condenser wire is on the inside of the mounting bolt? |
Yeah, I saw that too, which made me look up this factory image:
Glad that you guys caught it. Worth mentioning oiling the felt wick though.
Condensers last a very long time, much longer than points. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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No felt wick under the rotor to oil on the R 5's. On the inside of the through bolt there should be the points spring and the lead going to the coil. On the outside is the condenser wire. The insulated wire can touch the inner housing body but the brass connector for the condenser to coil wire should not contact the body anywhere.
The order isn't critical it's more important that the points are not grounding out on the inner body of the distributor.
The weakest point in this distributor design is that bolt assembly. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Where did I say it was under the rotor? It's part of the advance plate, the 4R5 totally has a felt ring built in to the breaker plate. It is like totally seen here at just left of the center hole!
_________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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You didn't Andy, the casual reader will be looking for one. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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herbie1200 Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006 Posts: 832 Location: Rome - Italy
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:37 am Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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scottyrocks wrote: |
Yes, it does.
Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.
Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on. |
I don't like the way of the upper light-green wire.
It appears straight in its way; remember that the central plate should be freely rotated by pneumatic advance and this is a fine balancing of forces (spring in distributor, spring in advance capsule, negative pressure in the diaphragm).
The so mounted wire seems to obstacolate a free rotation, especially when the distributor cap is in position.
I would reposition the upper wire by making a "bend" toward the bottom, this bend should better accomodate the advance correction. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Yep, the wire Herbie 1200 is worried about should be connected to the inside of that through bolt.
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:41 am Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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tasb wrote: |
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock. |
He's referring to the spring on the points. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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herbie1200 Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006 Posts: 832 Location: Rome - Italy
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:39 am Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Glenn wrote: |
tasb wrote: |
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock. |
He's referring to the spring on the points. |
Tasb is correct, I was referring to a spring inside the vacuum can. Probably I'm wrong, I remember a spring there, perhaps while dismounting another type of vacuum can, sorry. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13382 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:39 am Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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herbie1200 wrote: |
scottyrocks wrote: |
Yes, it does.
Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.
Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on. |
I don't like the way of the upper light-green wire.
It appears straight in its way; remember that the central plate should be freely rotated by pneumatic advance and this is a fine balancing of forces (spring in distributor, spring in advance capsule, negative pressure in the diaphragm).
The so mounted wire seems to obstacolate a free rotation, especially when the distributor cap is in position.
I would reposition the upper wire by making a "bend" toward the bottom, this bend should better accomodate the advance correction. |
I noticed the replacement cheese head screw securing the points already caving in on the sides. I have not found a correct length head cheese head screw being sold today. The new ones heads are not as tall as the originals which is why I re zinc plate the original screws if they are not damaged. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3412 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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I bought a bag of these from Mcmaster-carr.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#91613a224/=1dsca9f
M4 x .7mm, 6mm long. 316 stainless steel. $4.25 for 50 |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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herbie1200 wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
tasb wrote: |
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock. |
He's referring to the spring on the points. |
Tasb is correct, I was referring to a spring inside the vacuum can. Probably I'm wrong, I remember a spring there, perhaps while dismounting another type of vacuum can, sorry. |
On 36 hp Beetle vacuum canisters the spring is on the inside of the canister.
On all SVA distributors the spring was moved to outside the canister (40 hp- 1600).
On SVDA and DVDA canisters the spring is back to inside the canister. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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scottyrocks Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016 Posts: 2645 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Recap: I have been having non-starting issues.
About a month ago I started getting an intermediate miss and buck on the way to work. It got worse the longer I drove. By the time I reached my neighborhood the car barely had enough power to get into the driveway.
Since then I have replaced: spark plugs, wires (it was time for both, anyway), condenser, rotor, points, and coil.
I have tested both coils. The secondary resistance in both coils (old and new) is within spec (8.48 and 8.34), but the primary resistance in both is 0.00. As the gauge works on the secondary, could it not be working on the primary? It's the same gauge. Also, is 4 ohms (for primary) a maximum resistance and 0.00 is okay since it is under maximum (minimum is 0.4)?
Another issue when I connect a spark plug to any wire and then connect the other end of that wire to the coil center, I get no observable spark at all at the plug. But I do get proper secondary resistance on the gauge at that connection. This is the same with both coils.
I was going to take the carb apart to see if I was getting gas, or if there was a piece of schmutz in a jet, but I think I have to solve this no-spark issue first.
Further thoughts? _________________ If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them on some level there's no rational grounds for it.
D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Having a coil primary resistance of zero will result in the points tending to burn up rather quickly due to the increased current passing through them, installing an external resister or coil with 2-4 ohm primary will help in that regard.
With the ignition off, turn the engine so the points are closed and verify you have a reading of zero ohms or very nearly zero when measured from the green wire at the coil to the engine case. Next, switch the ignition on and verify you are getting full battery voltage at the coil terminal opposite of the one with the green wire. With both of those conditions met, you should be able to manually open the points which should trigger the coil to fire. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3412 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? |
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Quote: |
With the ignition off, turn the engine so the points are closed and verify you have a reading of zero ohms or very nearly zero when measured from the green wire at the coil to the engine case. Next, switch the ignition on and verify you are getting full battery voltage at the coil terminal opposite of the one with the green wire. With both of those conditions met, you should be able to manually open the points which should trigger the coil to fire. |
Good tip! |
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