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points spring mount location?
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scottyrocks
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Here's one I've never seen mentioned before.

I just replaced the condenser in my Bosch 4R5. In order to get the old one out I had to remove the points so I could get the small bolt out and removed the circle ring connector from the bolt.

This bolt goes through a (very) small black 'tower' attached to the points. The end of the points spring slides over the bolt that goes through the tower.

Now of course when I removed it I didn't notice on which side of the tower the bolt spring is supposed to go.

It doesn't seem to reach the outer side of the tower, but does reach the inner side. But on the inner side there seems to be too much spring pressure against the points arm. I gapped the points, but the car now won't start at all.

If the spring is supposed to fit on the outside of the tower there will be less spring pressure, which i believe would be normal, and maybe then the car will start(?)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Does this help?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Yes, it does.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.

Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Are either of the wires touching the body? if so they will ground the points.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

I was going to say it looks like your condenser wire is grounding on the body. Notice how on Glenn’s picture the condenser wire is on the inside of the mounting bolt?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

I did notice it when you both mentioned it. Got pretty excited, too. How simple a fix! Yay!

I had assumed that the wire's insulation would prevent grounding to the body.

I just went outside and put the lead to the coil on the inside, as shown in Glenn's picture. I also made sure that the wire connector to the condenser and both wires were not touching the body of the distributor anywhere.

Incidentally, the way I got the distributor, both wires were mounted to the outside, and it ran great until the intermittent missing began this past Monday.

I even put the original condenser back in, so now everything is as it was the last time the car started. Points gapped. And yes, the rotor is back in place.

The car still doesn't start. Not even a hint of ignition. Just cranking.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
I was going to say it looks like your condenser wire is grounding on the body. Notice how on Glenn’s picture the condenser wire is on the inside of the mounting bolt?


Yeah, I saw that too, which made me look up this factory image:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Glad that you guys caught it. Worth mentioning oiling the felt wick though.

Condensers last a very long time, much longer than points.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

No felt wick under the rotor to oil on the R 5's. On the inside of the through bolt there should be the points spring and the lead going to the coil. On the outside is the condenser wire. The insulated wire can touch the inner housing body but the brass connector for the condenser to coil wire should not contact the body anywhere.

The order isn't critical it's more important that the points are not grounding out on the inner body of the distributor.

The weakest point in this distributor design is that bolt assembly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Where did I say it was under the rotor? It's part of the advance plate, the 4R5 totally has a felt ring built in to the breaker plate. It is like totally seen here at just left of the center hole!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

You didn't Andy, the casual reader will be looking for one.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

scottyrocks wrote:
Yes, it does.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.

Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on.


I don't like the way of the upper light-green wire.

It appears straight in its way; remember that the central plate should be freely rotated by pneumatic advance and this is a fine balancing of forces (spring in distributor, spring in advance capsule, negative pressure in the diaphragm).

The so mounted wire seems to obstacolate a free rotation, especially when the distributor cap is in position.

I would reposition the upper wire by making a "bend" toward the bottom, this bend should better accomodate the advance correction.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Yep, the wire Herbie 1200 is worried about should be connected to the inside of that through bolt.

There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

tasb wrote:
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock.

He's referring to the spring on the points.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
tasb wrote:
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock.

He's referring to the spring on the points.


Tasb is correct, I was referring to a spring inside the vacuum can. Probably I'm wrong, I remember a spring there, perhaps while dismounting another type of vacuum can, sorry.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

herbie1200 wrote:
scottyrocks wrote:
Yes, it does.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apparently, mine is mounted correctly, towards the inside of the little tower/post thing.

Do you see anything that is obviously wrong there? It's cranking but no hint of ignition going on.


I don't like the way of the upper light-green wire.

It appears straight in its way; remember that the central plate should be freely rotated by pneumatic advance and this is a fine balancing of forces (spring in distributor, spring in advance capsule, negative pressure in the diaphragm).

The so mounted wire seems to obstacolate a free rotation, especially when the distributor cap is in position.

I would reposition the upper wire by making a "bend" toward the bottom, this bend should better accomodate the advance correction.


I noticed the replacement cheese head screw securing the points already caving in on the sides. I have not found a correct length head cheese head screw being sold today. The new ones heads are not as tall as the originals which is why I re zinc plate the original screws if they are not damaged.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

I bought a bag of these from Mcmaster-carr.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#91613a224/=1dsca9f

M4 x .7mm, 6mm long. 316 stainless steel. $4.25 for 50
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

herbie1200 wrote:
Glenn wrote:
tasb wrote:
There's no spring on the inside of the single vacuum advance vacuum cans just the one that is visible at 10 o'clock.

He's referring to the spring on the points.


Tasb is correct, I was referring to a spring inside the vacuum can. Probably I'm wrong, I remember a spring there, perhaps while dismounting another type of vacuum can, sorry.


On 36 hp Beetle vacuum canisters the spring is on the inside of the canister.

On all SVA distributors the spring was moved to outside the canister (40 hp- 1600).

On SVDA and DVDA canisters the spring is back to inside the canister.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Recap: I have been having non-starting issues.

About a month ago I started getting an intermediate miss and buck on the way to work. It got worse the longer I drove. By the time I reached my neighborhood the car barely had enough power to get into the driveway.

Since then I have replaced: spark plugs, wires (it was time for both, anyway), condenser, rotor, points, and coil.

I have tested both coils. The secondary resistance in both coils (old and new) is within spec (8.48 and 8.34), but the primary resistance in both is 0.00. As the gauge works on the secondary, could it not be working on the primary? It's the same gauge. Also, is 4 ohms (for primary) a maximum resistance and 0.00 is okay since it is under maximum (minimum is 0.4)?

Another issue – when I connect a spark plug to any wire and then connect the other end of that wire to the coil center, I get no observable spark at all at the plug. But I do get proper secondary resistance on the gauge at that connection. This is the same with both coils.

I was going to take the carb apart to see if I was getting gas, or if there was a piece of schmutz in a jet, but I think I have to solve this no-spark issue first.

Further thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Having a coil primary resistance of zero will result in the points tending to burn up rather quickly due to the increased current passing through them, installing an external resister or coil with 2-4 ohm primary will help in that regard.

With the ignition off, turn the engine so the points are closed and verify you have a reading of zero ohms or very nearly zero when measured from the green wire at the coil to the engine case. Next, switch the ignition on and verify you are getting full battery voltage at the coil terminal opposite of the one with the green wire. With both of those conditions met, you should be able to manually open the points which should trigger the coil to fire.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: points spring mount location? Reply with quote

Quote:
With the ignition off, turn the engine so the points are closed and verify you have a reading of zero ohms or very nearly zero when measured from the green wire at the coil to the engine case. Next, switch the ignition on and verify you are getting full battery voltage at the coil terminal opposite of the one with the green wire. With both of those conditions met, you should be able to manually open the points which should trigger the coil to fire.


Good tip!
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