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ledogboy Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005 Posts: 578 Location: Scappoose, OR / Oakland, CA
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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E1 wrote: |
Waldi wrote: |
There are no pros for bigger tires on a stock engine/gearbox |
If ignoring far better handling, stability in all directions, increased ride height, ability to run bigger brakes, bridging low spots on dirt, ability to carry more speed on road transition angles, wider choice in tires, ability to run lower pressures on sand and snow, resistance to debeading in extreme maneuvers, sidewall strength, and wheel strength against jolts and impacts, I fully concur. |
He said tires, not wheels... _________________ 1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice... |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6530 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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I'll let Waldi reply, but only two of my eleven points were about wheels... _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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erdonline Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2004 Posts: 943 Location: CT
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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tencentlife wrote: |
The stock 185 tires don't usually print the aspect ratio but diameter is usually about 24.5"
27.3 / 24.5 = 1.114, or an 11.4% increase in dia.
To get that down, choose a lower aspect ratio like 60 or 65, then do the math.
You can apply a percentage across the board, so your rpms will change by the same amount in any particular gear with a standard trans.
Go to town. |
One correction the aspect ratio of the stock 185's is usually considered to be about 82%. That gives an overall diameter of 25.94 inches.
Ed _________________ '85 Vanagon Westfalia
'84 Vanagon 7-passenger
'98 Mexican air-cooled Beetle |
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alanmacleod2 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2010 Posts: 57 Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Those rev/mile numbers are pretty far off. Don't use those for your calculations.
Look up what Nokian gives for their tires in those sizes.
215/65-16 _ 770 rev/mile
205/65-16 _ 785 rev/mile
225/60-16 _ 780 rev/mile
For comparison with the 2 stock 14" size,
185R14C about 810 rev/mile
205/70R14 about 820 rev/mile
I've been running oversize tires on my Vanagons for 30 years.
I find that 750 rev/mile is the upper limit before the loss of power is too great for me. I prefer slightly less loss, and now run 770 rev/mile. I'm talking about stock power level vans, or close to it.
Mark |
Mark,
I don't completely understand the Nokian website data sheet.
Based on their data, the WRC3 205/65 R16 has an overall diameter of 26.5" with 785 Revolutions/Mile ???
2 x 3.14 x 13.25 (26.5 / 2) = 83" circumference
5,280 ft / mile x 12 = 63,360 in / mile
63,360 / 83 inches = 763 revolutions/mile
Some of their other calculations are throwing me off also.
What am I doing wrong here??
Alan |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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For a street car with 95 hp designed with 185 r14, or 195 tires there is no overall benefit to handling or performances attributable to larger tires. In fact, a lot of degradation to handlng and performance happens along with reduced acceleration power and braking power, more fuel use, etc when you add larger/wider tires. I remain with my contention that I could easily outrun a matching Vanagon to mine on a track or any road race if the only difference was you put larger tires on yours. Easy, and I'd bet my title against yours. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader
Last edited by IdahoDoug on Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6530 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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I only have 82 hp, so, decline. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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Yeah, the supposed benefits of larger and wider tires are simply not there for a low powered vehicle like the Vanagon. In fact they're not really there for an ordinary modern vehicle, either.
Here are just a few negatives off the top of my head you should know of for larger/wider tires that degrade performance vs stock tires:
Increased unsprung weight.
Altered tire spring/bounce rate vs factory springs chosen for original tire size.
Lessened ability to put power to road due to loss of leverage from larger diameter.
Greater tire rolling resistance and air resistance.
Greater air resistance as vehicle is taller cruising down the road.
Higher roll center and center of gravity.
More strain on all drivetrain components.
Less tire-contributed stability against road irregularities and wind input.
If you'd like to discuss these in depth, I'd be interested in carrying to a new thread specifically about impacts of larger tires on performance, but it's simply not a supportable statement to say "My 95hp Vanagon performs better on larger tires."
Doug _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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DometicLover Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2013 Posts: 70 Location: Montrιal
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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alanmacleod2 wrote: |
Mark,
I don't completely understand the Nokian website data sheet.
Based on their data, the WRC3 205/65 R16 has an overall diameter of 26.5" with 785 Revolutions/Mile ???
2 x 3.14 x 13.25 (26.5 / 2) = 83" circumference
5,280 ft / mile x 12 = 63,360 in / mile
63,360 / 83 inches = 763 revolutions/mile
Some of their other calculations are throwing me off also.
What am I doing wrong here??
Alan |
Probably this. Outside radius is different than the contact radius. So at every turn the rubber accelerate and decelerate as it come in and out of the contact patch. I learned the hard way during my university years that tire behavior are very difficult to theorize...
But from my personal experience; 215/65R16 Nokia Rotiiva AT were great tire/size combo with minimal power loss on the WBX. I'm currently running BFG AT 235/75R15 with noticeable power loss but still acceptable for me. The good thing is that I'm now at 3100RPM @ 100kph which is noticeably quieter than the 3800RPMish (I think??) of the original tire. Most of my driving is flat anyway... |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9798 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Yere are just a few negatives off the top of my head you should know of for larger/wider tires... |
Plus they will make your brakes less effective.
Stock brakes are adequate but not exceptional. Reducing their effectiveness seems dicey. |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6530 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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I'm putting 35" tires on for my race with Doug.
I really hate to see grown men cry. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9923 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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Agreed, that 215/65R16 size works well and has become my favorite due to the large number of tires available in that size with an XL rating. Plus I insist on 5 matching tires on my fleet and it also is an easier fit into the front spare area than the slightly larger tires I used to mostly run.
Mark
DometicLover wrote: |
.....But from my personal experience; 215/65R16 Nokia Rotiiva AT were great tire/size combo with minimal power loss on the WBX. .... |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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edited
Last edited by tjet on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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Well, I may be Mr. Safety but that is one kick ass Syncro and my first reaction was a low "sweeeeeeeeeet!" under my breath. That's really high - I also remember getting a kick out of my head in my stock Syncro being higher than almost all stock SUVs and many with lifts. It's a small but meaningful thing!
Doug _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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edited
Last edited by tjet on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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I just want to drive around with an oil drum chained to the top. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like wanker |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6530 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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Busdigger Monster Bus, gotta have.
Sweet ride, tjet, enjoy that bad boy. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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edited
Last edited by tjet on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6530 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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Tjet, Ibex Dunes?
Been to the Park over fifty times. Seriously. Pitching another book about it soon, our favorite place on earth. _________________ 84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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It sure did. On that note, I want bigger tires Some KO2's would be nice _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Increased Wheel Diameter w/ Stock 2.1L Engine |
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I'm running 215/70-16 up front and 225/70-16 in the rear--staggered rims. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Last edited by Zeitgeist 13 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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