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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22683 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Oval1 wrote: |
Hey guys, I’m sure it’s in this thread somewhere Can anyone help me with where to get injectors for my 68 squareback? She’s not feeling so well... Thanks
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That car IS beautiful. Only problem is it's in the wrong driveway.
What's wrong with the injectors? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22683 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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OB Customs wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
OB Customs wrote: |
This car will be the death of me…So it has always had a cold start issue you have to cycle the key twice then start it holding the accelerator pedal down just a little for a min or two then it will idle on its own. Now that the temps are up here in Washington it has started giving me grief when its above the mid 80’s after a warm up and driving for about 30-40 min it starts to act like it wants to die so you have to feather the accelerator to keep it running and once it about say 1500-1800 it kinda clears out but it almost feels like I’m running out of fuel. It was sputtering and coughing then almost dies. I had my temp gun with me and the engine is barely 180*. Last week it was mid to upper 70’s I drove 2 hrs plus each way to a car show and no issue the weekend before that was 1 hr drive at 96* and it did it then. Any ideas? |
Which injection system?
How do you know it's fuel and not ignition? |
Sorry 69 D jet, Funny I was thinking ignition tonight on the way home. I just can't seem to find it. |
Coil heating up
Condenser issues
Point gap incorrect
Wobbly breaker plate
Low battery voltage/ charging system issues
Fuel pump heating up and seizing
Valves too tight
Not saying that it IS ignition, it's just that one should completely eliminate the ignition system (and charging system, fuel pump, valve adjustment) as the source before jumping to the fuel system.
I would carry a spare spark plug for testing spark, fuel pressure gauge, and maybe a noid light for diagnosis when it happens. This will lead you to a problem area pretty quick. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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OB Customs Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2011 Posts: 128 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Tram wrote: |
OB Customs wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
OB Customs wrote: |
This car will be the death of me…So it has always had a cold start issue you have to cycle the key twice then start it holding the accelerator pedal down just a little for a min or two then it will idle on its own. Now that the temps are up here in Washington it has started giving me grief when its above the mid 80’s after a warm up and driving for about 30-40 min it starts to act like it wants to die so you have to feather the accelerator to keep it running and once it about say 1500-1800 it kinda clears out but it almost feels like I’m running out of fuel. It was sputtering and coughing then almost dies. I had my temp gun with me and the engine is barely 180*. Last week it was mid to upper 70’s I drove 2 hrs plus each way to a car show and no issue the weekend before that was 1 hr drive at 96* and it did it then. Any ideas? |
Which injection system?
How do you know it's fuel and not ignition? |
Sorry 69 D jet, Funny I was thinking ignition tonight on the way home. I just can't seem to find it. |
Coil heating up
Condenser issues
Point gap incorrect
Wobbly breaker plate
Low battery voltage/ charging system issues
Fuel pump heating up and seizing
Valves too tight
Not saying that it IS ignition, it's just that one should completely eliminate the ignition system (and charging system, fuel pump, valve adjustment) as the source before jumping to the fuel system.
I would carry a spare spark plug for testing spark, fuel pressure gauge, and maybe a noid light for diagnosis when it happens. This will lead you to a problem area pretty quick. |
Tram,
I don't think its FI everything seems good, I'm leaning toward ignition Checked the fuel today 30 psi no movement, point and cap are in good order, valves are good, and 14.3 volts for output. I will get a noid and plug to check it.
Thanks for the help! |
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Oval1 Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks, it’s an all original survivor. It has like 14K miles on it Belonged to a Dr. in Indiana. His son said he wouldn’t even drive it in the rain. Crazy these things still exist out there on eBay _________________ DLK |
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OB Customs Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2011 Posts: 128 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Tram wrote: |
OB Customs wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
OB Customs wrote: |
This car will be the death of me…So it has always had a cold start issue you have to cycle the key twice then start it holding the accelerator pedal down just a little for a min or two then it will idle on its own. Now that the temps are up here in Washington it has started giving me grief when its above the mid 80’s after a warm up and driving for about 30-40 min it starts to act like it wants to die so you have to feather the accelerator to keep it running and once it about say 1500-1800 it kinda clears out but it almost feels like I’m running out of fuel. It was sputtering and coughing then almost dies. I had my temp gun with me and the engine is barely 180*. Last week it was mid to upper 70’s I drove 2 hrs plus each way to a car show and no issue the weekend before that was 1 hr drive at 96* and it did it then. Any ideas? |
Which injection system?
How do you know it's fuel and not ignition? |
Sorry 69 D jet, Funny I was thinking ignition tonight on the way home. I just can't seem to find it. |
Coil heating up
Condenser issues
Point gap incorrect
Wobbly breaker plate
Low battery voltage/ charging system issues
Fuel pump heating up and seizing
Valves too tight
Not saying that it IS ignition, it's just that one should completely eliminate the ignition system (and charging system, fuel pump, valve adjustment) as the source before jumping to the fuel system.
I would carry a spare spark plug for testing spark, fuel pressure gauge, and maybe a noid light for diagnosis when it happens. This will lead you to a problem area pretty quick. |
So as I drove it last weekend it was good all day but on the way home about the last 5 miles or so it started acting up. I let it sit for about 20-30 min went back out to put in the shop and I smelled fuel after shutting it off I opened the engine lid to find a fuel line started to leak. Since last weekend I have replaced all the engine lines and checked everything in the ignition system, all good I will readjust the valves tomorrow. Today I checked the fuel pressure it was @32 psi it has never started easy when cold so according to the Bentley manual I need it as close to 28 psi as possible after adjusting it to 28 the car idled on its own for the first time every when cold. I did notice since the gauge was on it that it lost about 8 psi in a few minutes after it was shut off any thing I should check? in addition, I notice that the fuel pressure had about 1 psi pulse? Maybe a sign of the pump going out like you said to check?
Thanks! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Commin issue. If you have no injector or cold start injector leaks....and you found the fuel line leaks.....its either the fuel pressure regulator leaking,down from rust or vibration pitting on the plate (in rare cases it can be a torn diaphragm)....or its the check valve in the pump.
In my book its far past time to dump the stock pumps and go with an equal modern pump.
Ray |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Hi all! First off big thanks to Tram for answering my questions so quickly!
I recently replaced the original 3 port fuel pump in my 1969 square with the E2000. All new fuel lines and filter. Fuel pressure is 28 psi. Now she’s idling slow. She was running great before the pump quit. I mean I think it was running good. I’m not all that familiar with squares.
Also, should the fuel pressure remain after the car is shut off?
I did notice a fuel leak at one of the injectors but I tightened the clamp and it stopped.
Any help is greatly appreciated! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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mackaymatt wrote: |
Hi all! First off big thanks to Tram for answering my questions so quickly!
I recently replaced the original 3 port fuel pump in my 1969 square with the E2000. All new fuel lines and filter. Fuel pressure is 28 psi. Now she’s idling slow. She was running great before the pump quit. I mean I think it was running good. I’m not all that familiar with squares.
Also, should the fuel pressure remain after the car is shut off?
I did notice a fuel leak at one of the injectors but I tightened the clamp and it stopped.
Any help is greatly appreciated! |
Yes...the fuel pressure should remain after shut down. Typically the pressure drops from 28 psi at shut down to between 21-23 psi. The higher it stays..the better.
Really on a system that is in GREAT condition...you get that first drop....and then overnight you may drop down to between 15-18 psi.
That first buzz of the pump when you hit the key will drive that up to about 23-25 psi.
Most systems in great shape....will drop down to about 10-12 psi and can stay that way for many days. The first bump of the key will usually bring that up to about 15-18 psi....enough to start and continue pump operation. Ray |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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EEEK.
Mine drops off imediately when I shut it off. I'm going to assume this means I have a leak. I'm also going to assume this would affect the idle problem.
I just replaced the original fuel pump with a 2 port. Is a check valve required?
I don't see any fuel drips anywhere.
Thanks |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22683 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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mackaymatt wrote: |
EEEK.
Mine drops off imediately when I shut it off. I'm going to assume this means I have a leak. I'm also going to assume this would affect the idle problem.
I just replaced the original fuel pump with a 2 port. Is a check valve required?
I don't see any fuel drips anywhere.
Thanks |
I don't think the 2 port pump holds pressure. Does it start OK or is it a struggle? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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There's a slight struggle. I thought I remember reading somewhere on here that a check valve was used but I'm not sure.
Would this affect the idle? |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22683 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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mackaymatt wrote: |
There's a slight struggle. I thought I remember reading somewhere on here that a check valve was used but I'm not sure.
Would this affect the idle? |
Shouldn't affect the idle, no.
Like I said in your PM check all the ignition stuff first anyways. Burned points are a possibility. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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nz jane Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018 Posts: 4 Location: new zealand
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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My 68 squareback runs and drives mint but my fuel pump leaks. Can anyone help with where I may be able to get a replacement? Not much available for fuel injected stuff here in New Zealand. It appears to leak from where the pen is pointing. For all I know it’s meant to 😆 or is this a replaceable part? Thanks
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Tram wrote: |
mackaymatt wrote: |
EEEK.
Mine drops off imediately when I shut it off. I'm going to assume this means I have a leak. I'm also going to assume this would affect the idle problem.
I just replaced the original fuel pump with a 2 port. Is a check valve required?
I don't see any fuel drips anywhere.
Thanks |
I don't think the 2 port pump holds pressure. Does it start OK or is it a struggle? |
That depends on which two port pump. 100% of them use a check valve. Required on any EFI pump.
Some are built into the outlet and not replaceable. Many....like the Airtex E2000 have a check valve that screws onto the outlet port.
The problem is that there are so many versions of the same E2000 pump....from generic to specific....that they can come with or without the check valve or with a wide range of inlet and outlet fittings.
You can check if it has one by clamping off the return line at the tank.....have the gauge connected....rev the pump for no more than 2 seconds. If the pressure drops off quick....no check valve in pump or a defective one.
Ray |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks for the input. I'll check it. |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Hi All,
A few questions. I’ve got a 69 squareback, FI. I recently replaced the fuel pump with a 2 port.
Now It’s not idling correctly and poor pickup so I’m checking the ignition components per Trams advice. I’m only getting around 4.5 vdc between terminal 15 and 1 on the coil. The coil seems really hot. Is this normal? The point contact seems ok. Advice on checking resistance between ignition switch and coil?
Also. I’m going to be replacing all the hoses. The short injector hoses have a compression fitting. Is there a way to replace these without replacing the whole injector?
Many thanks! |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22328 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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mackaymatt wrote: |
Hi All,
A few questions. I’ve got a 69 squareback, FI. I recently replaced the fuel pump with a 2 port.
Now It’s not idling correctly and poor pickup so I’m checking the ignition components per Trams advice. I’m only getting around 4.5 vdc between terminal 15 and 1 on the coil. The coil seems really hot. Is this normal? The point contact seems ok. Advice on checking resistance between ignition switch and coil?
Also. I’m going to be replacing all the hoses. The short injector hoses have a compression fitting. Is there a way to replace these without replacing the whole injector?
Many thanks! |
Yes, look in the "Blankity blank FI pump" thread. In it, it shows how to remove the short hoses from the injectors, so you can re-use your existing injectors. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33820 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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You can remove the short injector hoses with a dremel or hacksaw, but be careful not to nick the barb, shown in light blue below. Also, slit it lengthwise (along the hose) so you can peel it apart.
Use FI clamps, not worm clamps:
On my '71, if I make those hose nubs too long, the clamps hit the engine bay and can cause leaks or breakage. Check yours before removal, and see if a little shorter will work better for you.
Find your voltage issue... FI wants a nice high voltage for itself. If the ignition is low, the rest may be, too.
I presume you reset your fuel pressure after changing the pump? |
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mackaymatt Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Utah
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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Thanks! Yup pressure is good. It’s the low voltage that’s got me confused. It’s a newer ignition switch but I’ll have to check it. What’s strange is the car was running pretty good before I swapped the fuel pump. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel injection relief here! |
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mackaymatt wrote: |
Thanks! Yup pressure is good. It’s the low voltage that’s got me confused. It’s a newer ignition switch but I’ll have to check it. What’s strange is the car was running pretty good before I swapped the fuel pump. |
It "could" be a wide range of things. Track back through the wire diagram...as to what supplies voltage to the coil. Low voltage makes the coil run hot.
In fact low voltage makes almost everything run hot.
Its either a supply problem with not enough volts/amps to the whole system...generator or regulator.
Or....its a "transmission" of power problem...meaning you have enough power but you have poor connections. This can be poor supply connections to a relay supplying power to EFI and ignition or fuel pump...or it can be bad connections or wires between relay and components.
The most commonly overlooked connections are the main ground..meaning the braided negative connection to the chassis from the battery, the braided ground wire at the transmission nose cone....bad relay housing grounds to metal panels etc. Ray |
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