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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

I am unfamiliar with the Empi spring plates, but for some reason their CV joints are good quality. Never ever buy remanufactured CVs. With those they hone out the ball bores, and install larger balls. The problem is that the CV housing is only surfaced hardened, so when they hone them out, they get into the non hardened material. All of my VWs (except the 69 Baja with bus transmission), have the original CV joints. My road 69 (2110) has over 500K on them (I bought it in 79).

Yeah the repos may give you a life time warranty, but the statistics show that the average person keeps their car for only 5 years. Everyone spouts how good their repos are, but check back in ten years and they probably don't have the car anymore.

Just a question, why did you buy new stubs?
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:08 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

I didn't get any feedback about the EMPI CVs so I bought GKN/Loebro German CVs - the goal is to never have to buy them again. I did read somewhere that remanufactured CVs are cheap but very low quality and should be avoided.

I bought new stub axles because a week ago - I had zero parts for IRS - I had to buy everything. I found two subframes but they didn't have stubs.
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Clatter wrote:
Controlling wheel hop is job #1.

If you can keep the horns from wrapping up from hop,
You stand a far better chance of not breaking a CV.

So, I say do the bar and wait on the CVs.

Stock IRS rear suspension pars for beetle are common as dirt,
And should be free, or thereabouts.


Yup. IRS parts are plentiful, and out there. Things even use stock t-1 axles and CV's.
And another option is to start with a T-3 IRS unit, and weld in some frame horns to hang the trans off of. SupaNinja and some of us discussed this in another thread a few years ago, as he was wanting some info about doing the IRS conversion. He determined that using Berrien Buggies weld in frame horns were the way to go, since you keep the trailing arms in the stock location, and help keep the rear end in alignment.
What most people don't think about when using a swing subframe to start with is that it needs clearance carved into it to clear the CV joints. Critter has some photos of that in his build. Just a random thought to keep in mind.



Things do not use t-1 cv joints, thing joints are unique to things and 944's.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

I'll admit I know next to nothing about Things but when I was looking for the CVs - I found this on aircooled.net:

The VW THING (Type 181s) uses a Type 2 (Bus) CV Joint, which is a higher-angle joint, it is is capable of 17 degrees of angle. The next CV Joint in line is the Type 4 CV Joint, which is Type 2 and THING Size, but is capable of a 5 more degrees of angle for a whopping 22 degrees of angle! And then the hard core guys use the Porsche 930 CV Joints, which is bigger again for even more power handling, and it handles a 25 degree angle!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
I'll admit I know next to nothing about Things but when I was looking for the CVs - I found this on aircooled.net:

The VW THING (Type 181s) uses a Type 2 (Bus) CV Joint, which is a higher-angle joint, it is is capable of 17 degrees of angle. The next CV Joint in line is the Type 4 CV Joint, which is Type 2 and THING Size, but is capable of a 5 more degrees of angle for a whopping 22 degrees of angle! And then the hard core guys use the Porsche 930 CV Joints, which is bigger again for even more power handling, and it handles a 25 degree angle!


This is incorrect, things do not use a bus cv joint, they are wider than a regular t-2 joint. You can replace a thing joint with a t-2 as long as you don't over extend them. And a standard 930 will not handle 25 degrees.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
I'll admit I know next to nothing about Things but when I was looking for the CVs - I found this on aircooled.net:

The VW THING (Type 181s) uses a Type 2 (Bus) CV Joint, which is a higher-angle joint, it is is capable of 17 degrees of angle. The next CV Joint in line is the Type 4 CV Joint, which is Type 2 and THING Size, but is capable of a 5 more degrees of angle for a whopping 22 degrees of angle! And then the hard core guys use the Porsche 930 CV Joints, which is bigger again for even more power handling, and it handles a 25 degree angle!


This is incorrect, things do not use a bus cv joint, they are wider than a regular t-2 joint. You can replace a thing joint with a t-2 as long as you don't over extend them. And a standard 930 will not handle 25 degrees.


Good to know - but I'm not surprised...there's a LOT of misinformation out there which sucks because that makes it easy to buy the wrong parts.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Critter has some photos of that in his build.


Yes, here is the conversion I did on my notch. Welded chromoly torque bar, pockets for type-2 CVs, one inch narrowed trailing arms, SAW axles, spring plates and SAW 27mm short torsions with Jaycee spring plate covers. ISP West billet hubs with T3 drums. The subframe is mounted with T3D Delrin subframe bushings.

I realize I could've used stock type 1/3 CVs, and for the driving I do it would've been just fine. I think I was out to prove just how beefy it can be done. Now its there and I can beat on it until my hearts content. Initially I was concerned the 27mm torsions would be to stiff of a ride... Its really not. It feels like a new Audi to me... stiff but not rigid. I'm sure if i switched back to 24mm long torsions I'd think its too squishy. The good thing is, we can swap parts around to find just what works for us. In the end, I couldn't be happier with my IRS decision, and I would do it again.

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GjMan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

I seem to recall reading that many of those jigs for welding the IRS pivots to the SA subframe don't work on T3s; the T3 shock towers get in the way. Anybody have more info?
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

GjMan wrote:
I seem to recall reading that many of those jigs for welding the IRS pivots to the SA subframe don't work on T3s; the T3 shock towers get in the way. Anybody have more info?


That is the almost the case - from what I gather they need to be notched to clear the torsion housing.

Clatter's modified Type 1 jig:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yabba's T3 jig:
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Last edited by ataraxia on Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Critter1 wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Critter has some photos of that in his build.


Yes, here is the conversion I did on my notch. Welded chromoly torque bar, pockets for type-2 CVs, one inch narrowed trailing arms, SAW axles, spring plates and SAW 27mm short torsions with Jaycee spring plate covers. ISP West billet hubs with T3 drums. The subframe is mounted with T3D Delrin subframe bushings.

I realize I could've used stock type 1/3 CVs, and for the driving I do it would've been just fine. I think I was out to prove just how beefy it can be done. Now its there and I can beat on it until my hearts content. Initially I was concerned the 27mm torsions would be to stiff of a ride... Its really not. It feels like a new Audi to me... stiff but not rigid. I'm sure if i switched back to 24mm long torsions I'd think its too squishy. The good thing is, we can swap parts around to find just what works for us. In the end, I couldn't be happier with my IRS decision, and I would do it again.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is pretty much what I'm looking to do with my subframe (welded in torque bars/kafer bars - whatever they get called) - I like the shorter torsions in your set up...did you do any calculations or just go with what you thought looked right? My two DDs are rather firm ride so I don't think that'd be an issue for me...I'll see how this stock set up works out and if it's too soft, I'll probably follow along the lines of what you did here.

Those T3D Delrin subframe bushings are NLA - would be nice to find a set of those!
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

I received the EMPI spring plates yesterday.
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My photos are crap but it's easy to see that the finish/quality on them is pretty sad. Two of the edges on both spring plates are jagged - I could file that down but it wouldn't fix the crooked cuts and poor finish.

I went into buying EMPI parts with an open mind after swearing off of their parts for over a decade after several well respected industry people told me that their quality has improved drastically...guess they haven't made it to the spring plates yet. These are going to be returned today because I'm not putting this half-baked shit on my car.

The short torsion bars (21 3/4"") appear to be Type 1 swing axle, the mid length (24 11/16")are Type 3 swing axle and the long (26 9/16") are Type 1 and 3 IRS.

I'm now thinking that I'll replicate what Justin did and use the short torsions with the Jaycee retainers. I like the brass bushing on the outer location - which should reduce flex a bit.

Is there a way to determine the level of stiffness based on the length/diameter of the torsion bar or do I just need to pick one and hope I like it? I get that shorter and bigger diameter = stiffer than longer and thinner in diameter.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Ever so slowly I've been working on getting this done. I bought SwayAway spring plates and they arrived in a sealed box but were mangled. I contacted SwayAway and it took about a month before I had a replacement set. The welds on the second set were much larger and did not fit inside the radius of the Jaycee retainers. I wound up having to grind the welds down to clear the retainers and clean up the weld splatter on the face of the plates for smooth operation without eating the bushings.

The snouts are also not round - they are slightly oblong - which prevented the Jaycee retainers from fitting properly. I checked both with a micrometer and the retainers were round, while the spring plate snouts were not. A bit of time with emery cloth and I was able to get them 'more round' and get the retainers over them without them being too loose. If I'd used stock retainers and bushings - this likely wouldn't be a problem as there's a lot more acceptable variability.

One additional issue I discovered while dry fitting is that the spring plates need to be reshaped at the upper and lower 'corners' near the snout - they foul the subframe if left alone.
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I got them dry fit together - next step is to take this apart, paint the spring plates and put it all back together.
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Looking good! It’s too bad that you need to be a fitter, rather than an assembler with the new parts. Coming from years of building British bikes I know that same routine all to well. Still frustrates me every single time.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: IRS conversion query... Reply with quote

Excellent work! The single plates will help with multiple setting of ride heights. On my fastback, I used the 24mm torsion bars and the 15mm swaybar off a squareback. The ride is smooth and firm, not harsh and it corners well for a VW.
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