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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
Load on the engine effects the head temps. RPM is what effects the oil temps, not the engine load. |
I am not sure I can agree with that based on past experience with a '69 Bus. Oil temp on it was directly related to the pressure put on the gas peddle. The difference in oil temp was huge by just backing off 5 mph and the engine speed only changed maybe by 200rpm. If we wanted it cooler yet just drop a gear and let it rev up for a higher fan speed.
Maybe it's true though with a light car and a high revving performance engine. |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Not synthetic.
I noticed that the straight 30wt holds 3 psi more at 220* than 10W30 in the same brand does. Interesting! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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"In it's time' you could say that a type-4 bus ran TOO hot for the oil they had then. 250F wasn't rare, some recorded 300f in worst conditions, as VW built them.
Thus under the valve cover you'd see it BAKED onto the head, and the pistons also, and the oil going brown and breaking down.
Today.....not so much.
Modern engines squeeze a lot more power out of the same size piston, and the pistons are hyper-eutectic and slipper skirt, meaning they move FAR less heat out through the skirts.
The bottom side of the pistons run FAR hotter than ever before, so the oil on the shelf at the local parts store is now deigned to survive that.
It didn't happen all of a sudden.... it's gone back and forth as progress progresses.
They have problems with the rings getting stuck and needing a lot of top-off between changes. There was an outbreak of problems when a lot of higher rpm economy/sport engines with hyper pistons were new, when they went to thinner 5-30 or 0-30 for fuel economy, and another when direct injection was new.
The problems are solved, but I tell you for a fact it's the oil that got better, not the engines running cooler!!
Do keep in mind that in a lot of cases what kills the oil is not the average temperature, but the extra hot surfaces inside, the heads and pistons.
your overall temp is one thing, the piston and head temp is another!
In the type-1 with a mag case, we like to keep it cool because it's MAG case, and metal creep due to heat is THE #1 cause of lower end problems.
But very soon we will reach a point that the engines aren't running hot enough to make the modern oil work right....in fact, I think we are already there, for awhile now, which is another reason why old engines need special oil.
of course, the lifters are a concern too, but overall my point was that I think you will have difficulty even finding any kind of oil to buy these days, that can't take the heat, unless it is super thin, or special order blend for old cars. |
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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Clatter wrote: |
Any way to check your gauge for accuracy?
Also, make sure your over-cooler tin is hitting home.
Perform the pwank test before putting on left side cylinder cover tin? |
what on earth is the pwank test? _________________ CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick two of the above. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:00 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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modok wrote: |
"In it's time' you could say that a type-4 bus ran TOO hot for the oil they had then. 250F wasn't rare, some recorded 300f in worst conditions, as VW built them.
Thus under the valve cover you'd see it BAKED onto the head, and the pistons also, and the oil going brown and breaking down.
Today.....not so much.
Modern engines squeeze a lot more power out of the same size piston, and the pistons are hyper-eutectic and slipper skirt, meaning they move FAR less heat out through the skirts.
The bottom side of the pistons run FAR hotter than ever before, so the oil on the shelf at the local parts store is now deigned to survive that.
It didn't happen all of a sudden.... it's gone back and forth as progress progresses.
They have problems with the rings getting stuck and needing a lot of top-off between changes. There was an outbreak of problems when a lot of higher rpm economy/sport engines with hyper pistons were new, when they went to thinner 5-30 or 0-30 for fuel economy, and another when direct injection was new.
The problems are solved, but I tell you for a fact it's the oil that got better, not the engines running cooler!!
Do keep in mind that in a lot of cases what kills the oil is not the average temperature, but the extra hot surfaces inside, the heads and pistons.
your overall temp is one thing, the piston and head temp is another!
In the type-1 with a mag case, we like to keep it cool because it's MAG case, and metal creep due to heat is THE #1 cause of lower end problems.
But very soon we will reach a point that the engines aren't running hot enough to make the modern oil work right....in fact, I think we are already there, for awhile now, which is another reason why old engines need special oil.
of course, the lifters are a concern too, but overall my point was that I think you will have difficulty even finding any kind of oil to buy these days, that can't take the heat, unless it is super thin, or special order blend for old cars. |
Ok, I get it.
My head is still in the '70s where the bearings went south on any VW engine that the oil got hotter than 250*. I had a '92 Chev truck that had cooked bearings from trailer towing with the oil too hot as well so get gun shy when the oil temps go up. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:02 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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rrcade wrote: |
Clatter wrote: |
Any way to check your gauge for accuracy?
Also, make sure your over-cooler tin is hitting home.
Perform the pwank test before putting on left side cylinder cover tin? |
what on earth is the pwank test? |
It's a type 4 thing.
Clatter... ? |
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Mr Beckstar Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2015 Posts: 25 Location: The Entrance, NSW, Australia
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:54 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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I’m battling this high oil temp issue too. My ‘76 model bus with 2 Litre twin carb automatic gets up to 270 deg F at 68 MPH (110 km/hr which is highway speed here in Australia) after about half an hour. Even when I’m tooling around at 40 MPH, oil temp hits 230 deg F. It’s winter here at the moment and the above is at ambient temps of between 55 and 70 deg F. I’m really worried about what’s going to happen in summer when it’ll hit over 100 deg F at times.
Oil temp sender is in the taco plate. I bought a taco plate and cover from a Porsche 914. Checks against an infrared thermometer supports the accuracy of the readings I’m getting above. I’m going to revisit that soon though as I’m running out of ideas.
Engine is rebuilt with all new big end bearings, pistons, barrels, etc and it’s now got about 3000 miles on it. It’s all stock standard apart from the AMC heads which were on it before the rebuild and were fairly new, in good condition and simply stripped down, cleaned up, valves relapped and put back together. Cam shaft is a new CB performance unit but it’s all stock opening/closing angles. Compression ratio is standard. All oil galleries were cleaned thoroughly. I’ve checked the oil pressure control valve spring (a single valve case on the CJ motor) and it meets Bentley specifications.
All tinware is in place, foam seal is brand new. Fan housing flaps are all working properly after fitting new Awesome powerdercoat thermostat. I’ve verified their operation and they open fully and cover the oil cooler properly. It’s still got original exhaust heat exchangers and the small non-return flaps at the bottom of the fan housing are in place and working. The heater booster fan is present as are the hoses and tubes that feed the exhaust heat exchangers. In 1976 in Australia, we didn’t have any exhaust gas recirculation system, so that’s not the issue. I’ve got a standard Ernst muffler and have fitted the heat shield between the muffler and the tinware. Plug lead seals are all in place correctly. There are a couple of grommets missing in the firewall tin but I’ve tried sealing them temporarily and it made no difference.
Carbs are rebuilt to original VW specifications by a VW carby expert including throttle shaft rebush. They’re the correct base flange number and jetting for my engine as sold in Australia new on an Auto kombi. There are no air leaks in either the brake booster vacuum line (tested by capping off at inlet manifolds and checking for different idle) or the central idle circuit. Tuning needle valves are all in the correct positions and engine does run best at that position (i.e. about 2.5 turns). I’ve been right through Amskeptic’s dual carb balancing/tuning procedure including setting up chokes. It’s even got the air intake hose leading from the warm air intake flap housing over to the correct position above the battery.
Distributor is the correct SVDA version for the engine number/carby configuration (205P). Timing is set to 29 deg BTDC at 4200 rpm with vacuum lines disconnected and plugged which gives 8 deg BTDC at idle. Vacuum can is not leaking and gives correct advance. New points (twice), condenser (found to be faulty after idle problems), spark plugs (correct heat range) and plug leads.
Thermostatic valve and warm air intake is all renewed and working properly to control intake air to correct temp.
I’ve dropped down from 20W50 to 0W40 synthetic 100% PAO with high ZDDP levels but no significant temperature change. I’m going to try 5W30 next and may even check against a synthetic blend since I’m running out of ideas.
Sorry to hijack, but as you can see, I feel your pain it’s very frustrating. |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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I don't see that on the T-4 Engines in bug, but a two ton non aerodynamic Bus is a different story.
One simple suggestion , a real plus is the fact the T-4 has a spin on oil filter.
Many of my High Performance Bug and bus customers , especially in Europe, put it a Sandwich plate oil hose adaptor with built in thermostat.
Unscrew the filter, screw on the adaptor plate screw back the filter. Run some oil lines to nice size cooler and maybe hook up an electric fan.
Seeing it comes with the built in thermostat it will only open at 170f.
Actually I think they sell it without the thermostat so it is on all the time. I know OZ work with guys in Sydney, did the Elevators during the Olympics, you have no real winter. But your summers are off the chart. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Those temps do not surprise me at all with a Bus. our '69 with a 1600 SP ran hot like that and even hotter at times. We added an RX7 oil cooler with a fan and that brought it down a lot.
The difference here is it's in a 1400 pound Buggy. I have part of the day off tomorrow and the forecast is for 30*C so I will hook on to the trailer, put in a full load of adults and hit the river hill. That should tell me something! |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:45 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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So the trailer doesn't make much difference to oil temps, maybe 5* - hard to tell as the weather temp variation from day to day effect this thing a lot. Yesterday we got up to 110*F and the Buggy oil temp settled in around 255*. I am getting a bit worried about that but we don't often get it that hot here.
We are taking it on a 3.5 hour run to the city today and the forecast is for a bit cooler so we shall see...
I am wondering about the wisdom of re-using the cooler from this Bus engine. I rinsed it out really well but did not try any aggressive cleaning solutions. Maybe the inside has a coating of black burnt on oil like the inside of the case did?
I see there are copies available made in China. |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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My 69 Westy would often hit 250 degrees oil temperature while climbing a steep mountain grade; then drop back to 220-230 degrees on the flat. Usually had to gear down to third and keep a steady 50 mph in the slow lane. We never experienced any engine problems with these temperatures (using 5W40 synthetic). _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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I've over kill on coolers that run through a Mocal. thermostat . I like to keep the oil under 100c , I know the oil can go a lot higher and even has better lubricity at a higher temp but I don't like the low oil pressure at low revs that come with higher oil tempts .
Being in a semi tropical environment I don't have a condensation issue that needs a high oil temp to boil off moisture. Although I have deduced that water doesn't need to boil to evaporate .
My oil temp rises with engine load and is related to CHT's , on a side note I use water injection to keep the CHT in a safe zone when working the engine hard , like low gear in very soft sand or towing a trailer up a long incline or head winds at 110km/h .
2 of the fans in the pic below are on an AC condenser.
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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The temps in a Bus keep coming up and I fully understand that struggle as I have been there, done that and bought the tee shirt back in the late 60s, early 70's but to have this struggle in a Buggy???
Any way I need to narrow it down and see if it is due to a bad cooler or a hot air recirculation issue. It's not really in the red zone but uncomfortable close.
Yesterday it was 220*F at 70*F ambient in the afternoon, 190*F at 55*F in the rain for an hour. The rain stopped and it warmed up to 60*F and the oil temp settled at 200*F all at 60 mph. This is good temps really but it would be nice if it stayed there and did not go higher on hot days. |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4026 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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If you thought my intercooler was getting warm air from the back then that big fan is probably sucking a bunch of warm air back though it.
Get a cheap digital temp gauge with a probe you can mount by the intake to check what kind of air you are drawing.....if they still make wired thermometers for homes......
My Digital Voltmeter has a temp probe that would probably work well enough on a longer drive.
You can always buy a cheap one from the Canadian equivalent of our Sears or Autozone. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Been there and done that with quality test equipment and to my surprise I can only find about 10*F temp rise at the fan inlet above ambient. I was expecting much more than that so not sure if it is the issue.
Maybe I would learn more with a pressure gauge. Maybe there is enough of a vacuum there that the fan is inefficient. |
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candelaj Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Folsom, CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
slalombuggy wrote: |
180 is too cold, 200 is barely warm enough. You need to get the oil above the boiling point of water. My 2.3L engines in all their configurations have always run around 220-230.
Personally I would just keep an eye on the gauge if you're in the mountains on hot days and not worry about cooling till you see if there is an actual problem.
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This is exactly what the billion dollar oil companies say about using the oil they manufactor. I have never understood why people read here on The Samba that a VW is somehow magicly different than what the billion dollar oil industry knows about their products.
220* is not too hot. It will not hurt any metal part inside your engine. It will not alter the metallurgy or effect the heat treat or hardness of anything.
DO NOT confuse normal water temps of a water cooled engine with normal oil temps. |
I agree entirely! Air-Cooled ≠ water cooled. As for air-cooled VWs, is oil pressure related to temperature? What's best for pressure? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Oil pressure is inversely related to temperature. The hotter the oil gets the lower the pressure goes. |
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Mr Beckstar Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2015 Posts: 25 Location: The Entrance, NSW, Australia
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Solved the problem with my engine |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:02 am Post subject: Re: another high oil temp with a difference |
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Mr Beckstar wrote: |
Solved the problem with my engine |
and what was the problem in the end? |
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