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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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I have tried penetrating oil and heat, perhaps not enough of either, with no sign of success in sight. My largest flat screw driver is starting to damage the screw pictured below. Does anyone have any tricks or tool recommendations I can use to get the job done? I am trying to prevent damaging the screw or the plate since I may be able to reuse them. Is there a large, wide flat screw driver bit made that will fit a 1/2" impact driver? If so, what is the proper name I should search for?
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Emil
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The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32634
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| Evil_Fiz wrote: |
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Emil |
In this photo.......... Where are the threads located?
A few thoughts.......
Heat...... when one uses heat on fasteners, you make that puppy glow like a red cherry.
Penetrant oils ....... eh, they do work but nothing exciting. They need time to soak down into slight crevices around the fasteners.
Large screw driver bit...... yes, my hand held hammer impact came with a large flat blade.
There are many ways to loosen a stuck fastener.
Heat is my #1 favorite. There is NOTHING like playing with fire!
Propane torches are a waste of time. Oxy/Acy are the cats meow.
I use a candle too, the wax when melted has a a way of crawling into tight areas.
Impact, yes an 18v hand hekd impact can work wonders.
A small hammer and a brass drift can to. Place the drift on the screw head and give it 100 quick raps with a hammer. Try it again, put more penetrant oil on it. Hit another 100 times, soak it again, let it sit..... this may take days but it will work.
I have found that an ATF and acetone mix are a superior rust penetrant.
Patience is the best tool in your arsenal.
Brute strength is your #1 enemy.
A link to a lot of information.......
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575480&highlight=
Dave
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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The threads are located in the dark pocket above the corner of the reverse "L" shaped piece, almost exactly dead center in the photo. All I have at the moment is a MAP gas torch so I doubt I can get it cherry red. It's difficult, but not impossible, to get good access to apply the penetrant oil. I will try the candle wax trick with the map gas torch.
Any thoughts on what size bit to search for? The slot on the screw head is about 11/16 x 3/16. I am search challenged and the last 30 min. of searching has done little to improve my odds 
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Emil
_________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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CiderGuy
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2013
Posts: 1351
Location: Bucks County, Pa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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The hinge for the doors on the Ghia need a # 4 screw driver or bit. Is it larger or smaller then those screws ? Ace has always had the screw bit sizes I needed.
Let us know what you find out. |
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crocteau
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2005
Posts: 1204
Location: Philaburbia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| Evil_Fiz wrote: |
| ... what is the proper name I should search for? |
FWIW... When I found myself in the same situation I tried all the aforementioned approaches, but to no avail. Next I searched for, found, and bought this: https://airheadparts.com/vw-part/cv-header-to-frame-junction-piece-left/. Then I used a cutoff wheel and performed surgery to remove metal from the junction piece until I could separate it from frame. I also bought new screws (https://airheadparts.com/vw-part/cv-header-junction-to-top-frame-screw-2/) and got on with installing the header bow. That was over a decade ago when I had a good job and less patience.  |
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swavananda
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Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| I had one stuck as well before. Did the heat and penetrant back and forth, Tried hammer and chiseling ,only made it worse and a no go. I ended up cutting the slot deeper with a dremel wheel . Got it deep enough that a large flat head with a crescent wrench ,was able to make a solid enough purchase to break free. Ended up reusing the bolt as well. If that don't cut it, Put a 15/17 mm nut on header bolt face and puddle weld the inside of the nut to it . Impact ready. That will do it. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32634
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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kman
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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You can absolutely get it cherry red with mapp gas but you want to heat the metal surrounding the fastener and remove the fastener while the rest is red before it cools. The advantage to oxy-A is the speed you get it to red before the heat has a chance to migrate to the fastener thus expanding it also.
They do come out and believe it of not that joint is supposed to slightly pivot.
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djkeev
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Thank you to all for the replies so far.
Elsewhere I read about using a reshaped cold chisel as an improvised screwdriver with a wrench attached, or a bar welded to it, and an air hammer. I will give the suggestions a try and report back with my results.
@ Ciderguy
The screw is slotted, 11/16" x 3/16". I have a #4 Philips which I used to remove the door hinges. All four hinges came of easily by hand so I got lucky on that front.
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Emil
_________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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djkeev
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Those look worse than mine, At least I only have one side to worry about; the other is missing completely. I am trying to locate a a torch set so maybe it won't be so bad.
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Emil
_________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| Do you have a mig welder ? You could also pool up some welds on each side of the bolt slot. The heat transfer would immediate and intense. Plus add some material to whack a chisel against . If that don't work then weld a nut to it like I mentioned. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12861
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Hose them down with some PBlaster or Kroil, let them soak for a few days & get a good impact driver & a 40oz BFH, heat up the nut side with a propane torch & give the impact driver a couple of good whacks, they'll come right out.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1049
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| swavananda wrote: |
| Do you have a mig welder ? You could also pool up some welds on each side of the bolt slot. The heat transfer would immediate and intense. Plus add some material to whack a chisel against . If that don't work then weld a nut to it like I mentioned. |
I have a MIG so It's worth a shot. I would like to reuse the bolt if possible. Your suggestion sounds reversible via a grinder so I may try it. Thanks
Would it make more seance to weld onto the outside of the captive nut itself? Or would this create more issues than it solves.
Pardon my ignorance, I am still trying to understand all I know about these things.
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Emil
_________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| Evil_Fiz wrote: |
| swavananda wrote: |
| Do you have a mig welder ? You could also pool up some welds on each side of the bolt slot. The heat transfer would immediate and intense. Plus add some material to whack a chisel against . If that don't work then weld a nut to it like I mentioned. |
I have a MIG so It's worth a shot. I would like to reuse the bolt if possible. Your suggestion sounds reversible via a grinder so I may try it. Thanks
Would it make more seance to weld onto the outside of the captive nut itself? Or would this create more issues than it solves.
Pardon my ignorance, I am still trying to understand all I know about these things.
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Emil |
If there is room to do it , Yes. But I think a 17mm nut will be close to circumference . |
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swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Hose them down with some PBlaster or Kroil, let them soak for a few days & get a good impact driver & a 40oz BFH, heat up the nut side with a propane torch & give the impact driver a couple of good whacks, they'll come right out. |
Normally i agree this would work, But for perspective , This Bolt slot is more the size of the oil pressure relief . I don't think there is a impact bit that would be large enough. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12861
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Jeebus, y'all ain't got no imagination.
If they make a fastener, then there is a fu&*ing tool for it.
You can even take one of your 3/8 drive extensions, cut it to desired length, & grind the flats in it & make your own.
Find a 3/8 to 1/2 adapter & grind the damned flats in it, that should be easy enough to find.
Hell, find a lug nut (not tool steel, may shear or distort), grind the threaded part down to your slotted head & use the 17mm or 19mm socket on the head of it with your impact driver.
It took me longer to type this shit than it took to come up with several ideas to solve your problem. 
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32634
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Just a "For What It's Worth" comment.
Those who are advocating the BFH approach and beating the living Crap out of it may not realize the fragility of the connection or the irreplaceable nature of it.
We aren't dealing with 1/4" steel plate and cast iron here.
I've seen hinge pillars where those wielding BFH's have severely distorted the hinge mounting points on the Pillar. I've seen the Same damage on the door jambs, all whacked out and rendered almost unuseable.
I will repeat.......
BRUTE FORCE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND IN THIS SITUATION
This connection calls for the use of chemicals, gentle persuasion, heat and patience.
However, if you want a mangled mis-shapen top connection to add to the already easily bent fiddlely top, go ahead and get out the sledge hammer!
But this is just my opinion.......it is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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djkeev
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