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Peters Van Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2014 Posts: 357 Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:43 am Post subject: Steering coupler disc |
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found out why my battery was going flat.
i have a faulty steering coupler disc.
this coupler disc is new but when the bolts are tightened it become conductive.
the tighter the bolts are done up the more conductive it becomes.
i assume it has something to do with the reinforcing material inside the rubber.
this problem only exists on type 3s that use the steering coupler to isnulate the steering column from the outer shell of the column.
from what i have found it may only be 65,66,67 models as the horn wiring configuration has changed a few times throughout the years.
i need to find a new steering coupler disc that isnt conductive.
anybody know of what brand to get.
i dont want to end up with a pile of couplers that are no good to me...
cheers peter _________________ 1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:50 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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Buy the real OEM manufacturer one. It's the only one that is stiff enough.
Bughaus carries it as do other outfits I'm sure:
https://www.bughaus.com/steering_coupler_-_111415417GR.htm
If you have the aftermarket one that says "premium quality" on it, toss it in the garbage. I had that one. It's not stiff enough and when turning the steering wheel with the car stopped (like getting out of a parallel parking space), it would deform enough to allow the two steering flanges to contact each other, causing the horn to sound. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Peters Van Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2014 Posts: 357 Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:51 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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here is a pic of the coupler
here it is showing resistance between the metal posts
and here is a pic from the SGF website showing the construction of the coupler.
i believe the fibre inside the disk must be the problem as if i put the meter into the rubber it shows no reading.
the bughaus coupler in the link is aslo made by SGF so i assume its conductive........... _________________ 1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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That appears to be the correct coupler. It's the same one I have. Mine is most definitely not conductive. I have not attempted to measure resistance through it though. It's not conductive in the sense that it does not cause the horn to sound nor does it drain the battery.
But you are showing a resistance of 23,000 ohms. I'm not sure that can be considered "conductive" in a 6 or 12v system.
I'm not convinced this is the cause of your battery drain. An easy way to check would be to remove the fuse for the horn circuit and then test the draw at the battery with an ammeter. If you still have a draw, then the coupler ain't it.
I know this is gonna sound stupid but are you sure you're installing the nuts and bolts/washers and electrical jump-over tab correctly? I feel like there's something else going on here. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Peters Van Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2014 Posts: 357 Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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heres the pics from my flat battery post
and with the coupler out of the car but having bolts tightened up to show resistance...
this coupler is fine for cars that have the strap across the coupler as that makes the column earth anyway..... _________________ 1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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Peters Van Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2014 Posts: 357 Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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forgot the last pic.... sorry
_________________ 1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:12 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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There are some electdically conductive rubbers. They typically do not have the tensile strength required for a part like this. Too much carbon.
Another issue that is actually fairly common...are conductive mold releases used in the molding process.
23,000 ohms is not particularly conductive...but can be conductive enough to slowly drain your battery.
Did you wash the coupler before installing? Do that to remove any possible conductive mold release on the surface.
On the other hand....it looks like a damn good design. I looked on their site. All this company makes is torsion couplers. They are not just a Chinese repop company. I would find it hard to believe that they actually made this kind of design mistake.....but not knowing that the coupling does more than just transfer load....they might.
Also....looking at the cutaway diagrams on their site.....it looks like the metal flange parts are also double sided metal grommets. They will when squeezed contact the metal tube/ferules inside.
https://www.sgf.de/en/sgf-sueddeutsche-gelenkscheibenfabrik-english/service1/interesting.html
Also....you show testing between two poles with your volt meter. Test again....diagonally. its possible if they are using some metal or carbon fibers.....that you havd to be careful how its installed. Ray |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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The horn circut is only active with the key on. Are you leaving the key on?? If, no, then this is not your problem. _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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mcmscott wrote: |
The horn circut is only active with the key on. Are you leaving the key on?? If, no, then this is not your problem. |
Early Type 3s have horn circuit active all the time (like my '65) & brake lights only work with key on. At some later point that changed. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/type34_sept61.jpg
Odd, this early diagram shows a horn relay that is only active with key on power. _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
On the other hand....it looks like a damn good design. I looked on their site. All this company makes is torsion couplers. |
Ray, yes, this company is a VW OEM. This coupler is a quality item. Sometimes the couplers arrive with the VW logo and part number ground off. I have installed this exact coupler in my '65 to replace a crappy aftermarket one.
I would like to think that they would know/adhere to the design specs regarding electrical conductivity.
I just installed one of these probably within the last year so I would hope they haven't changed it since then but who knows. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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That's a Type 3 Ghia with dual horns and a relay.
Regular Type 3s had a single horn with no relay. If you look at the early diagrams you'll see its powered direct from battery via fuse box. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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Low and behold it sure is!!! Learn something new every day. I would just move it to key power so it can't create a draw.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/type3_1500N_64.jpg _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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OP, I just saw your other thread - apologies, I wound up suggesting things you had already done because I didn't see your other thread until now, but...
you said something that I'm unclear on, it seemed to imply that your car does not have the wire that jumps over (electrically) the steering coupler? Because it should.
You should have a wire running down through the center of the steering column which then connects to a terminal under one of the coupler bolts. That terminal uses the bolt as ground path through the coupler to the steering box flange on the other side, then the steering box should have a ground wire to the front axle beam.
I found a pic of my SGF coupler and the only difference is that mine has the number 89 below the SGF name rather than 100. I have no idea if this means anything or is just something dumb like a production lot or batch number.
On a related note I found my video of my previous coupler, the crappy one that would flex too much and allow the steering box flange to contact the steering column flange bolts and let the horn sound.
Link
_________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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How long does this car sit before the battery drains? you show 89 mA that would take quite a while to drain a fully charged battery. The group 42 batteries are all about 45 Amp per Hour . |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
On the other hand....it looks like a damn good design. I looked on their site. All this company makes is torsion couplers. |
Ray, yes, this company is a VW OEM. This coupler is a quality item. Sometimes the couplers arrive with the VW logo and part number ground off. I have installed this exact coupler in my '65 to replace a crappy aftermarket one.
I would like to think that they would know/adhere to the design specs regarding electrical conductivity.
I just installed one of these probably within the last year so I would hope they haven't changed it since then but who knows. |
Yep....you would think they know.
But...I can almost assure you that they also produce couplers for industrial use...that MUST be conductive. These can be mandatory for grounding static discharge when a coupler is used say...between a machine drive and a motor in a system that is moving LOTS of air...and has materials being used that are explosive.
And...being that they probably have conductive rubber stock somewhere in their plant....it magnifies the risk is that most granular or resin based rubbers which will look the same conductive or not....may have been mixed or substituted.
Having worked in numerous injection molding plants....let me tell you from experience how easy it is to get materials mixed up...or to contaminate a batch
I say this because you are not the first to note this exact problem....
Check out the video link on page 11 of this 15 page thread about steering coupler discs in the bay forum. I think they found that the reinforcing fiber was actually steel.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435679&highlight=steering+coupler
Ray |
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Peters Van Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2014 Posts: 357 Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:49 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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thanks everyone for your replies........
my working so far is as follows
1. current draw of 87mA takes about 3 weeks to flatten the battery to the point where the car wont start and as it not my daily driver it needs to be fixed. this 87mA equates to approx 300 ohms as can be seen from the steering column to the outer. column itself is isolated from the body with the rubbers but didnt take a pic of that.
2. i could just wire the horn so it only worked with the ignition on but thats the easy way out. ( guess thats why VW did it on later models )
3. with the coupler out of the car testing resistance from each of the metal posts i get 23K ohms which may not be a problem
4. when the coupler has the bolts in it and tightened up the resistance is 1.25K ohms but the more you tighten the bolts the lower the resistance becomes. if i left them at 1.25K ohms the battery would be flat in a couple of days and the steering would be wobbly.
5. conclusion...the fibres between the posts must be conductive because if i stick the probes into the coupler rubber bit i get no resistance reading.
as i tighten the bolts the fibres are compressed together and become more conductive......
does this make any sense to anyone ...........
i am going mad trying to work this out ...... _________________ 1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21462 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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I just found some notes here and there on-line.....about the "Tenpu" fiber inside of these. It is a carbon fiber composite......so its quite possible that the fiber itself is conductive.
It "should" in most cases....depending on position of the fiber bumdles and the steel bushings when molding......be insulated from the stedl bushings if the rubber during molding squeezes in properly.
I think its what I was getting at in my last post. There is a cuttaway in one of the drawings on their site. The steel part that surrounds the metal tube that the bolts you through.....are technically steel flanged grommets.....meaning they have an inner and outer flange. As you tighten the nuts.....it can squeeze the grommets together....squeezing the fibers looped around the post....closer together and making contact between carbon fibers....inner metal tubes....and steel grommets.
Understand.....you "could" if they are loose.....remove the steel tubes and replace them with simple glass filled Delrin tubes. You do not have to tighten the bolts until they squeeze the rubber donut. This is why they use nuts with cotter pins.....so that you do not have yo tighten jt down until the nuts reach a torque level. You tighten it up enough to remove all slack...then put in the cotter pins to prevent them backing off.
Ray |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5984 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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This is very interesting. Since I'm using the same coupler and since my horn circuit is also hot all the time, I am curious to check for any parasitic draw on my battery.
My car doesn't usually sit for 3 weeks at a time except for maybe in the dead of winter when they've bombarded the roads with salt. But I usually keep it on a battery tender if it is going to sit for a long time so I haven't had any issues of the battery draining low enough to keep the car from starting. But now you've got me curious. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22328 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
This is very interesting. Since I'm using the same coupler and since my horn circuit is also hot all the time, I am curious to check for any parasitic draw on my battery.
My car doesn't usually sit for 3 weeks at a time except for maybe in the dead of winter when they've bombarded the roads with salt. But I usually keep it on a battery tender if it is going to sit for a long time so I haven't had any issues of the battery draining low enough to keep the car from starting. But now you've got me curious. |
Yes, this IS very interesting. I don't have my horn hooked up, but the parasitic drain thru the coupler is interesting. On my own car, I have to disconnect the power to the radio/CD player, or the battery will be dead in 2 weeks from maintaining the presets and clock function of the radio. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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