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Where to buy paint for vanagon?
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0to60in6min
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

During my student days I learned and worked at a auto body/paint shop for supplemental income, here are few tips;

- no paint booth? wet the floor before painting. Cover the walls with plastic sheets to block dust.

- if you apply primer, sand it smooth and wait long enough till it dried otherwise moisture in there will create bubbles 1 to 3 months later.

- a good paint job depends a lot on the time spent for sanding, hand sanding, that's why paint job is expensive.

- knowing ambiance temperature and mixing ratio is important - not too thick not too thin, make it right - orange peels and paint runs are signs of bad ratio mix at specific temperature.

- good compressor and paint guns will make your job easier (Devilbiss, Sharpe etc...)

and finally a few practice on a piece of junk (a door, a fender from junk yard) will help too...

good luck
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I will disqualify myself from any actual painting advice by confessing what some here already know. A few years ago I painted my Syncro in my garage with concrete floor paint from Home Depot. They tinted it the color I wanted and you can see the result in my avatar picture here on Sambar I still use (for some reason, I have never been able to change my avatar picture). Sold that and now drive a 2WD that I prepped the body and then had painted by a professional. Same yellow color.

So in the interests of full disclosure, my advice is to speak with professionals about your equipment and the paint that will likely create best results. But don't listen to me on the ACTUAL painting as I'm a knuckle-dragger!!!
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SyncroButter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Also, there is a handy paint and bodywork forum right here... I recommend checking it out, there is a good sticky on paint and bodywork process explained.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=13

Other tidbits for you:
-Yes, you should buy an entire "system" comprising primer surfacer, primer sealer, color coat and clear coat (clear coat only if you are doing base coat clear coat vs single stage). You want these products to "play well together" and this is a simple way to ensure that.
-pay serious attention to the results of the first coat of primer... really examine the entire van with good light and note what you see. Stuff that did not stand out to you will suddenly pop e.g. any body filler work that is not up to par
-It used to be that you would shoot a coat of spray paint or similar cheap paint onto the sandable primer to that when you sand it out you can see low and high spots etc. That tech is now outdated, there is a great product from 3M (and I am sure other manufacturers) that is basically a black powder that you use instead. Having done it both ways, the powder is a huge improvement.
-every paint you buy from a reputable shop (whether primer, sealer, color or clear) will come with a sheet of tech info. This is your bible. It will spell out mixing ratios for each possible temperature, will call out what nozzle size to use on your gun, will call out the times between coats, etc etc. Pay close attention to this stuff.
-masking is a critical step, expect to spend a surprising amount of time masking for paint. Use real materials here... newspaper and brand X packing tape will not do a good job
-you can absolutely shoot a great paint job in your own garage, I have done it multiple times. I echo the suggestion above about clearing out dust, wetting down the floor and using plastic sheeting to make yourself a "booth." Note that paint vapor in the concentrations that can show up in a home made booth can be flammable so be very cautious with any source of open flame or sparks.
-modern paint can seriously F you up if you are not using correct protection. Wear a respirator intended for the paint you are going to shoot, absolutely do not skimp here. 3M makes a great product which is an entire mask with cartridges, the entire thing is worth a certain amount of use (I think around 20 hours) then you toss it. If you use it for an hour, it goes back into a specially sealed bag... super convenient and surprisingly affordable. Pick up a few tyvek suits from your local home depot or Amazon as well and wear gloves.

Some shots of my body work, paint booth, etc from April 2018 onward:

Rust below kitchen
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rust over driver rear wheel well
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Rust beneath windshield
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Rust cut out, new panels in, ready to mask and paint
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During the painting (note my homemade plastic sheet paint booth)
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Post paint and color sanding, reassembly
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Camping last weekend (I started body work April 1, shot paint July 1)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle
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westina
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Thank you, lots of good info.
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Proudly presenting my body work I knoW its not jaw dropping but way better than before. Rusty parts cut out and new panels and new metal patches welded. Mostly, it was ok. I did all that work in the middle of the winter inside an unheated garage.
This panels are affordable but not perfect. Based on what i have read on the web, i have dressed my welds with fiberglass. Another thin layer of bondo to smooth things out, finished with a glazing putty to cover sanding scratches. The contour on the panels giving me hard time. They are hard to be sanded in a straight, uniformed and blended manner.(at least for me) I am also having difficulty where my thin layer of bondo meets the existing body, giving a slight wavy look. This are the stuff i am still working on.
The original paint is faded, worn but still solid. I am scuff sandin/light sanding/ wet sanding everything to achieve a blended surface. One mistake i did was to going a bit agressive with sanding at the beginneg of the project with resulted going down to the bare metal at the few edges. Its very frustrating to deal with the surface rust, once you expose bare metal. I prime it in the morning and by the afternoon a brownish color bleeds through the primer(high build). i now have a can of etching primer to try on those few areas.
Another area puzzles me is the seams. I have a dremel attached thin blade, trying to get the seal out of the seams. The crack is not wide enough, it contacts to the metal and removes the existing primer end exposes another bare metal, which shows surface rust the next day. I can't skip the seam seal work because the current one cracked, dried. It would look bad next to the new paint job. Not to mention there is a small window that seal has to be painted, otherwise you need to sand it accordingly.
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jberger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Having performed quite a bit of industrial enamel spraying in my youth... I set about shooting a Bay Westy some years ago. Used Dupont single stage enamel. tried some test boards with HVLP guns and couldn't get the hang of it. Pulled out my Binks cup gun with a huge tip and blew the hell out of it. I really like the binks pressure cup design and feel comfortable with it. The product has to be properly reduced so it atomizes completely. Adjust your fan before you start applying to the van. Keep a wet line as you move along.. almost like mowing the lawn. Bugs are easy to paint.. lots of small panels, vans are a bitch with their huge sides and roof. I'm excited for you.
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SyncroButter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

jberger wrote:
I'm excited for you.


+1, you are about to see all of that hard work pay off!
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In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
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westina
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I have paid a visit to the local auto body supply store today. One of them albert kemperle chains. Ended up getting OMNI MBC which appears to be the entry level paint. Sales rep suggested their kemperle brand clear is a decent product as well. Grabbed a gallon of that. So i have a gallon of base and a clear. Once i configure the rig, i ll shoot some base and see if it works.
Combed the web for OMNI MBC a little bit. Plenty of bad reviews. I just hope that its not a total crap.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Do not go cheap on the paint. That is where it is worth it to buy better quality.
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flyboyaviator
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

How about Automotivetouchup. com
or Touchpaintonline.com
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E1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Agree with Dave on not scrimping on the paint!

Nor any other materials or equipment!

Another recommendation… if one reducer is recommended for say 70-80 and another 80-90 degrees, and it's 80, get the 80-90.

(part of my living used to be custom and candy-apple paint, but it was a while back so am just quoting temperatures for reference, not what's now out there)

Simplifying, you want the paint to dry as slowly as possible for the ambient temperature. You'll get better flow out and durability and it'll be easier to reduce overlapping strokes showing.

Work from top to bottom whenever possible, and start the job in an area allowing for less quality until you get better, such as the right-rear windows areas.

I've done a lot of painting but small race cars, never a big vehicle, but my brother was a career restorer. You might just tape off the left-rear quarter panel from the left hatch gap forward, paint the rear hatch, and have someone remove the mask by the time you get there to avoid the wettest area overlapping the driest. Maybe the overlap could be right on the vertical radius just forward of the hatch so paint's coming from the "south" when doing the hatch, and the "west" when joining.

In other words, save the biggest panels for the end of whatever side you're painting. doing the big driver's side panel second-last, and the driver's quarter last. But honestly this is with just a moment of thought, just getting you thinking of a strategy here.

Only disadvantage is more bugs sticking, but that is waaaaay less critical than the paint mix. Try hard to not lay down too much paint — as is the tendency! — just a nice, even coverage is optimal. You can always block sand the orange peel out after the fact.

I would strongly encourage you to ask a couple painters how m,uch you'll need, and add at least a third more to that. Good painters get good coverage with minimal paint and that takes a ton of practice.

I recommend asking a guy working the trenches, NOT a paint supply guy who may or may not have done much painting, and/or will likely just quote the manufacturer's coverage numbers with false confidence… those estimates are very best-case if painted by a pro and you do not want to run short of paint!
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Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

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westina
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

Honestly, i am not too happy i picked the entry level stuff. I am not gonna blame it on the sales guy. At the end, i would have said ; nO i want to spend more. Gimme the business class.
Interestingly, he mentioned that if you paint the same piece with omni or higher tier paint, you can't tell which one is which. But, chepo will last 5 year and the other one lets say 10.
Since it s a try/learn, not much clue type of work for me, I told him to shake and bake the chepo.
Some folks reports not very good coverage. Maybe i do few more laps with the gun, would that ruin the work? Too much build up for example? Devil sayz go hook up that sprayer and shoot some over that side piece that covers the sliding door track. What do yu think? the stuff has no pot life so i can use the mixture later. Only a bit work to clean the gun right?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

flyboyaviator wrote:
How about Automotivetouchup. com
or Touchpaintonline.com

Thanks. I have located a few local sources. I better of not to deal with ordering and shipping, which equals to waiting, unexpected delays etc. If one day i get good and organized with this, i may order online.
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E1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I hesitate saying too much more only because it's been awhile for me. But my memory's decent. Wink

I'd think you want at least two to three coats anyway. I do not know if anyone recommends sanding between coats but that was standard on the best work when I did it. Often marketing will say "not necessary," but often marketing says what the laziest want to hear rather than what's best.

Presuming this is recommended by a current painter, I'd still think the best durability would come from a good, solid coat one day, wet-sand the next, and lay down at least one more.

If by "coverage" you mean how much paint thickness/depth you need to make the primer no longer visible, that can be overcome by another coat. Sometimes the more-expensive paint can sell for more solely because it does cover better, meaning, can be painted in less hours with less paint and thus billed out for less labor, too.

In these days where paint pricing is utterly berserk, I suspect said pricing can justify the extra expense of better-covering paint. Unfortunately marketing is all about what we want to hear, not necessarily the best choice for a new painter like yourself.

All to say that the paint you bought should be fine for the goals you have. You'll probably enjoy it, peeling the masking off is quite a thrill!
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman
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westina
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

E1 wrote:
Agree with Dave on not scrimping on the paint!

Nor any other materials or equipment!

Another recommendation… if one reducer is recommended for say 70-80 and another 80-90 degrees, and it's 80, get the 80-90.

(part of my living used to be custom and candy-apple paint, but it was a while back so am just quoting temperatures for reference, not what's now out there)

Simplifying, you want the paint to dry as slowly as possible for the ambient temperature. You'll get better flow out and durability and it'll be easier to reduce overlapping strokes showing.

Work from top to bottom whenever possible, and start the job in an area allowing for less quality until you get better, such as the right-rear windows areas.

I've done a lot of painting but small race cars, never a big vehicle, but my brother was a career restorer. You might just tape off the left-rear quarter panel from the left hatch gap forward, paint the rear hatch, and have someone remove the mask by the time you get there to avoid the wettest area overlapping the driest. Maybe the overlap could be right on the vertical radius just forward of the hatch so paint's coming from the "south" when doing the hatch, and the "west" when joining.

In other words, save the biggest panels for the end of whatever side you're painting. doing the big driver's side panel second-last, and the driver's quarter last. But honestly this is with just a moment of thought, just getting you thinking of a strategy here.

Only disadvantage is more bugs sticking, but that is waaaaay less critical than the paint mix. Try hard to not lay down too much paint — as is the tendency! — just a nice, even coverage is optimal. You can always block sand the orange peel out after the fact.

I would strongly encourage you to ask a couple painters how m,uch you'll need, and add at least a third more to that. Good painters get good coverage with minimal paint and that takes a ton of practice.

I recommend asking a guy working the trenches, NOT a paint supply guy who may or may not have done much painting, and/or will likely just quote the manufacturer's coverage numbers with false confidence… those estimates are very best-case if painted by a pro and you do not want to run short of paint!
file:///C:/Users/faruk/Downloads/OB10+MBC+Acrylic+Basecoat+04+17%20(1).pdf
I have tried to post the data sheet, but anyway. Just checked the reducer. He gave me a medium reducer. Here is the whole info
Reducer
MR185 Fast 55-65°F (13-18°C)
MR186 Medium 65-75°F (18-24°C)
MR187 Slow 75-85°F (24-29°C)
MR188 Very Slow 85-95°F (29-35°C)
3/4 quarts seemed to be the average paint, based on online reports of vanagon owners, which should leave me a quart extra. If it doesn't cover well, i may need more. Data sheet says 5-10 min between coats. So if i run out paint, the store is 25min drive each way. Am i screwed? Another challenge is that the turbine unit is not very fast. By the time i finish one lap, not sure how long it s gonna take. I know the compressor painting is fast . I painted a body kit for my honda del sol in my fast and furious days.
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westina
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

E1 wrote:
I hesitate saying too much more only because it's been awhile for me. But my memory's decent. Wink

I'd think you want at least two to three coats anyway. I do not know if anyone recommends sanding between coats but that was standard on the best work when I did it. Often marketing will say "not necessary," but often marketing says what the laziest want to hear rather than what's best.

Presuming this is recommended by a current painter, I'd still think the best durability would come from a good, solid coat one day, wet-sand the next, and lay down at least one more.

If by "coverage" you mean how much paint thickness/depth you need to make the primer no longer visible, that can be overcome by another coat. Sometimes the more-expensive paint can sell for more solely because it does cover better, meaning, can be painted in less hours with less paint and thus billed out for less labor, too.

In these days where paint pricing is utterly berserk, I suspect said pricing can justify the extra expense of better-covering paint. Unfortunately marketing is all about what we want to hear, not necessarily the best choice for a new painter like yourself.

All to say that the paint you bought should be fine for the goals you have. You'll probably enjoy it, peeling the masking off is quite a thrill!

Very good point. I told point blank. I have time, I can wet sand between the coats. He said dont sand just spray the next cote. I have regretted few times before going with cheap paint on few different home project. You buy that Behr or whatever good brand, the consistency almost like a mayoness and u roll it once and covers all, compared to watery color from wallmart.
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E1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I suspect that indicates that you "can" paint 5 to 10 minutes later, not that you have to. Pretty impossible to cover the bus even in 10 minutes!

The message here seems to be "Don't lay a coat down and then paint another one hours later without sanding!"

And again, I hope I'm not leading you astray. If anyone here thinks I am, please correct, I sure don't want to give bad advice!

I would strongly recommend asking a good, local painter, preferably one owning his own shop… like someone on the custom side where they often "do it all." I'd ask if they could BS with you awhile the next day right at closing… particularly effective if you're offering a case of (good) beer for their time!

I would have helped you big time with that approach… and likely without the beer. But I've long been a bit rare in helping out/giving back like that, providing the recipient showed they appreciated it and it wasn't "expected."
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman


Last edited by E1 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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westina
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I ll look into that wet sanding between basecoat idea. I wonder if there is a time frame that u must lay the next coat. DATA sheet says 24 hours window to spray the clear. Would that be the same for base coat? Maybe i call PPG and speak to a tech support.
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E1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

I would absolutely call PPG Tech Support!

But I'd still wanna talk with a painter doing it every day.

Choose a good time of the day and week to call PPG, like mid-week and maybe an hour before lunch… basically, not an hour before closing on a Friday and the same for Monday morning. They're a good company and used to sponsor IndyCar racing so I have a soft spot for them.

If the "24 hour" comment means "Don't wait more than 24 hours to apply clear without sanding," I still think you'd get a better job by sanding before clearing.

I used to paint lacquer jobs, sometimes candy apple paint made by House of Kolor. It explicitly said you could not sand the metallic base before applying the "tinted clear" that provided the color, followed by actual clear. I thought they recommended this because many painters would over-pressure the sanding and those scratches would show and they'd get complaints. This was really tricky paintwork, far more tenuous than working with simple color paint.

I ignored that and sanded anyway, the day after laying down the metallic base. I was really careful to not overly scratch the metallic, and never had an issue, it laid down like a candied apple coating just like the name.

I called the company and told them what I'd done, and they said something like "Don't tell anyone" for fear of tons of warranty claims or lack of return customers.

And Hey, since you painted panels already I feel this will be easier than you might think. But I get it, it can be scary going in!!!


Another thing… are you using tack rags to pick up the dust right before painting???

A bit on those… do not let them get warm or hot, and do not sweep with much pressure!

The "tack" is almost like a glue they soak the raw rags in. When hot it can smear off on your surface and you will not see it until you're painting. Not Good!

I used to keep mine in a really cool and shady place until right before needing them. Use very lightly, and hire an assistant to kill bugs as you paint. Wink

And use a proper mask for paint, NOT one for dust. This is a big reason why most painters aren't old painters, be careful.
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman
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syncro surf
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

mikemtnbike wrote:


The gun says moves 6cfm at 40psi and need a compressor in the 1-3 hp range.

But, the compressors at HF, even at 2.5hp, don't move 6cfm at 40psi.



I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but this is one of the difficulties with HVLP (the high volume part). Most good HVLP guns require higher volume than your basic 2.5 hp compressor can maintain. Look at the gun specs - you can find HVLP guns with lower volume requirements or you can get an LVLP gun.

I bought an inexpensive LVLP gun from Grizzly and it worked great with my 2.5 hp compressor.

My syncro is also Pastel White and the Dupont shops (now Axalta and Nason) have the code. I got Nason single stage acrylic enamel for some panel repairs and it went on very nicely. Good Luck!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Where to buy paint for vanagon? Reply with quote

westina wrote:
I ll look into that wet sanding between basecoat idea. I wonder if there is a time frame that u must lay the next coat. DATA sheet says 24 hours window to spray the clear. Would that be the same for base coat? Maybe i call PPG and speak to a tech support.


Right, there is minimum time between coats for them to flash (that's the 10 minutes or whatever) and then there is "tie in time" where you want to lay down the next coat before the previous coat sets up too much. So you need to shoot your second coat between the minumum time (flash time) and max time (tie in time) of previous coat. Confirm this with PPG for your paint system, they are helpful.

re: sanding, you will want to sand each coat of sandable primer, then shoot a primer sealer and do not sand that, then paint the color coats (note: has to be shot within the tie in time from the sealer!), then you can sand (bugs, dirt, etc) in the color before shooting the clear.

The spec sheet should also show sanding times i.e. the minimum time to wait after shooting the color before you can sand it.
_________________
Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle


Last edited by SyncroButter on Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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