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Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

You don't beat on it for the sake of taking your frustration out on it but the hammer has to have enough mass to not bounce off the driver or allow the bit to cam out of the fastener.

Working on cars ain't pretty & they sure as hell aren't as fragile as everyone think they are. rusted/seized fasteners will need plenty of coercion from ALL forms of extraction remedies, chemical, heat, & shock. The key is to know what the limits are.

If that screw head is as big as suggested then that piece of steel that it's in is at least 3/16"-1/4" thick, that's thick enough to not distort with a well placed blow on an object that is designed to transfer much of the force into a twisting motion.
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Last edited by TDCTDI on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
may not realize the fragility of the connection or the irreplaceable nature of it.

Actually, it looks JUST like a 3/16" piece of steel bent into a 90* with a nut attached & welded to the frame. VERY easy to reproduce.
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GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.


Last edited by TDCTDI on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Evil_Fiz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

@DjKeev
I fully recognize the fragile nature of the pieces involved and the cost and headache involved in replacing them. I have a straight convertible frame in very good shape and intend to keep it as such. The junction plates are expensive but available as well as the screw in question but Like you, I rather spend a week working on one stubborn screw than cut it out and spend the $17 it would cost to replace it. (Hobby time does bot count)

That being said I do not want to diminish the value of this discussion. I appreciate all the suggestions that have been provided by those who know far more about this than I do. This is not the last rusted bolt I will deal with in my life so every suggestion and strategy provided is valuable to me since I had very few of my own to start with.

@DjKeev
Since you have the same parts in hand, do you think I will do any damage if i MIG weld onto the outside of the captive nut the screw is threaded into?

-----
Emil
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

I knew that I had one around here somewhere.

Contact your local Snap-On rep & ask him for tool # "A17". It is however a 1/2" drive.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

But you'll probably be able to buy a 6 piece set of Kobalt extensions to cut up for the price of this one socket.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

Thanks TDCTDI. I found several on eBay. It lists as a 1/2" drive Drag Link socket. If it is not too much trouble could you provide the dimensions of the driver blade? The slot on the screw is just under 11/16" long but it sits in a circular recess. I have not measured the width of the slot but it looks to be about 3/16".

-----
Emil
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

I wouldn't weld on it, you can only reach one side and welding on it, while providing heat also will distort it turning it into a lock nut.

When fixing cars, excuses to buy tools are wonderful!
Owning an Oxygen Acetylene torch will absolutely change your life.



TDCTDI

That drag link bit you show is HUGE!!!
This is a better fit but even then some grinding would be called for...... that screw head isn't as big as you might be thinking it is.........

https://store.snapon.com/Drag-Link-Industrial-3-8-...40845.aspx

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

29/32" x 5/32"

Drag link bit?!? that's what I had to use to rebuild the Audi power steering pump back in the day. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

Ok...... I dragged (drug)....... carried....... my 70 Vert top up to the garage.

I had to remove the upper glass seal before I could access the screw.

At 11:17 EDT I began removing the screw.

Here is the mess I have!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




My screw was BUGGERED!!!! I am NOT the first to remove it!

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I had to get my Dremel and refresh the slot.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Once the slot was good I made sure it fit my flat bit for the hand impact tool.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I put the bit (using various adapters) onto my DeWalt 18v impact driver.

Using my Oxygen Acetylene torch with the cutting tip (cutting tip makes LOTS OF HEAT) I made the captured nut red hot and the spacer barrel the screw passes through red hot.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Using the impact I did very short burst of loosen/tighten back and forth. As it began to move I sprayed on some rust buster mix (which burned off) and worked the screw back and forth.
DO NOT MAKE BIG MOVEMENTS!! A lot of turning stresses the hardware and it often breaks, you need to work off the rust and corrossion with many small movements.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Once I got it to turn about 1/4 turn, I ran it fully in and saturated the unit with candle wax. This exposed the threads which now are coated with wax and will take the wax into the nut as it is withdrawn.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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I let it sit a short while and then began my small movements again.

With each try it moved more and more....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Finally it is out!!

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Finish time? 11:33 EDT

16 minutes.

I'll add photos.

In conclusion.......
No BFH required.
And..........
Go buy yourself an Oxygen/acetylene torch boy!

Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:53 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help Reply with quote

Oh, and by the way, the metal in this assembly is 14 gauge and 11 gauge or darn near as I can figure with the rust.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

So my shopping list is now as follows:

- Torch set
- Impact driver with large flat bit
- Lavender scented candle (Double duty, lubricate threads and calm me down)

-----
Emil
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swavananda
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

Evil_Fiz wrote:
So my shopping list is now as follows:

- Torch set
- Impact driver with large flat bit
- Lavender scented candle (Double duty, lubricate threads and calm me down)

-----
Emil


My bit is 7/16" x 5/64

5/16" hex shaft

Something like this.....
https://www.amazon.com/ARES-70013-8-Piece-Philips-...&psc=1


Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

WOOHOO! Dave got something done on his project! Laughing

Now you just have to do SOMETHING to it for 15-30 minutes a day & you'll be able to drive it.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.


Last edited by TDCTDI on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

swavananda wrote:
Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me Wink


One of the greatest things about these forums is that there are so many minds at work.

I made a tutorial, it worked flawlessly for me.

Others are more than welcome to build upon a tutorial or do things entirely differently based upon their skills and inventory of tools,

I'm not one for cutting off captured nuts, and if you had a top frame in front of you it would become quite obvious how hard that would be to do on this nut.

Go for it! Show us how you would do it.

No need to weld a nut on a perfectly good screw slot.
In my way of thinking The nut welding comes after all else has failed.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

I guess the Ghia community is gonna have to goad Dave into a daily tutorial.

What's your process for dismantling the rest of the top frame? Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
swavananda wrote:
Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me Wink


One of the greatest things about these forums is that there are so many minds at work.

I made a tutorial, it worked flawlessly for me.

Others are more than welcome to build upon a tutorial or do things entirely differently based upon their skills and inventory of tools,

I'm not one for cutting off captured nuts, and if you had a top frame in front of you it would become quite obvious how hard that would be to do on this nut.

Go for it! Show us how you would do it.

No need to weld a nut on a perfectly good screw slot.
In my way of thinking The nut welding comes after all else has failed.

Dave


I actually did redo my own top and know the intricacies well . I made no reference to cutting off anything ? Only heating the same area you did with MAPP will be effective.

You suggested to go out and spend money....... but I go with the assumption the not every one here has extra money .

Grinding the bolt after and refreshing it would be half the time it would take to cut up an extension to make a drive bit. If a mig welder isn't owned then a impact bit driver definitely is the way to go. Just like diagnosing a problem , go with the cheapest part first.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
I guess the Ghia community is gonna have to goad Dave into a daily tutorial.

What's your process for dismantling the rest of the top frame? Twisted Evil


Ha!!
My work season ends Friday @4 PM my job is intense and seasonal.
We take a weeks vacation + at our Pennsylvania house
September is cataract surgery month
October is West Coast Family visits month ....
It will be late October / November before I'm back at this project!

I pulled this convertible top frame out because There was a lot of theory and talk about the best process but no actual hands on experience in doing this task.

The OP's top is far less rusty than mine, it should be a cakewalk to get apart.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

You can't help but love and appreciate the Samba community. I can't think of a bigger repository of collective ACVW knowledge; not to mention all the ancillary knowledge available as well. Thanks to all the sugestions provuded in this thread I was able to cobble together a solution for removing the pesky screw. Here is what I ended up doing:

Tools Used (MAP gas torch not shown)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After mangling a cold chisel, and failing at using it to remove the screw, I modified one of my air hammer chisels and fashioned a perfectly sized impact driver bit.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There was not enough "good" material on the screw head for the driver bit to grab so I used the spot weld cutter chisel from my air hammer set to cut a deeper groove in the screw head.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I attached a pair of Vice-Grip pliers to the chisel bit then applied heat to the captive nut using the MAP gas torch. I was not able to get it red but apparently the heat did it's job. While Using the air hammer to apply downward pressure on, and vibration to, the screw head, I attempted to turn it using the pliers. It eventually moved so I employed the technique demonstrated by djkeev of working it back and forth in small increments. It took only a few minutes to get the screw completely out. some 3-in-1 oil was used on the threads as the screw was worked in place.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The successful removal of the screw was brought to you by the many contributions to this thread, the letter "G" and the number "4"

-----
Emil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal Reply with quote

Evil Fiz .........

WELL DONE!!!

Go to the head of the class!

You have just proven what I said. You used what you have on hand, the knowledge of impact and heat on stuck fasteners and you got it done!

Using the impact cutting tool never occured to me but what a fantastic idea!
Noisy as all get out but it worked.

Dancing Applause

Seriously though, if you ever decide to purchase a torch set up, having one will change how you work on older vehicles.
Put one on your Christmas list to Santa.


Dave
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