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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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You don't beat on it for the sake of taking your frustration out on it but the hammer has to have enough mass to not bounce off the driver or allow the bit to cam out of the fastener.
Working on cars ain't pretty & they sure as hell aren't as fragile as everyone think they are. rusted/seized fasteners will need plenty of coercion from ALL forms of extraction remedies, chemical, heat, & shock. The key is to know what the limits are.
If that screw head is as big as suggested then that piece of steel that it's in is at least 3/16"-1/4" thick, that's thick enough to not distort with a well placed blow on an object that is designed to transfer much of the force into a twisting motion. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Last edited by TDCTDI on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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djkeev wrote: |
may not realize the fragility of the connection or the irreplaceable nature of it. |
Actually, it looks JUST like a 3/16" piece of steel bent into a 90* with a nut attached & welded to the frame. VERY easy to reproduce. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Last edited by TDCTDI on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1031 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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@DjKeev
I fully recognize the fragile nature of the pieces involved and the cost and headache involved in replacing them. I have a straight convertible frame in very good shape and intend to keep it as such. The junction plates are expensive but available as well as the screw in question but Like you, I rather spend a week working on one stubborn screw than cut it out and spend the $17 it would cost to replace it. (Hobby time does bot count)
That being said I do not want to diminish the value of this discussion. I appreciate all the suggestions that have been provided by those who know far more about this than I do. This is not the last rusted bolt I will deal with in my life so every suggestion and strategy provided is valuable to me since I had very few of my own to start with.
@DjKeev
Since you have the same parts in hand, do you think I will do any damage if i MIG weld onto the outside of the captive nut the screw is threaded into?
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Emil _________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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I knew that I had one around here somewhere.
Contact your local Snap-On rep & ask him for tool # "A17". It is however a 1/2" drive.
But you'll probably be able to buy a 6 piece set of Kobalt extensions to cut up for the price of this one socket. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1031 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Thanks TDCTDI. I found several on eBay. It lists as a 1/2" drive Drag Link socket. If it is not too much trouble could you provide the dimensions of the driver blade? The slot on the screw is just under 11/16" long but it sits in a circular recess. I have not measured the width of the slot but it looks to be about 3/16".
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Emil _________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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29/32" x 5/32"
Drag link bit?!? that's what I had to use to rebuild the Audi power steering pump back in the day. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal help |
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Ok...... I dragged (drug)....... carried....... my 70 Vert top up to the garage.
I had to remove the upper glass seal before I could access the screw.
At 11:17 EDT I began removing the screw.
Here is the mess I have!
My screw was BUGGERED!!!! I am NOT the first to remove it!
I had to get my Dremel and refresh the slot.
Once the slot was good I made sure it fit my flat bit for the hand impact tool.
I put the bit (using various adapters) onto my DeWalt 18v impact driver.
Using my Oxygen Acetylene torch with the cutting tip (cutting tip makes LOTS OF HEAT) I made the captured nut red hot and the spacer barrel the screw passes through red hot.
Using the impact I did very short burst of loosen/tighten back and forth. As it began to move I sprayed on some rust buster mix (which burned off) and worked the screw back and forth.
DO NOT MAKE BIG MOVEMENTS!! A lot of turning stresses the hardware and it often breaks, you need to work off the rust and corrossion with many small movements.
Once I got it to turn about 1/4 turn, I ran it fully in and saturated the unit with candle wax. This exposed the threads which now are coated with wax and will take the wax into the nut as it is withdrawn.
I let it sit a short while and then began my small movements again.
With each try it moved more and more....
Finally it is out!!
Finish time? 11:33 EDT
16 minutes.
I'll add photos.
In conclusion.......
No BFH required.
And..........
Go buy yourself an Oxygen/acetylene torch boy!
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:53 am; edited 3 times in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1031 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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So my shopping list is now as follows:
- Torch set
- Impact driver with large flat bit
- Lavender scented candle (Double duty, lubricate threads and calm me down)
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Emil _________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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swavananda Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009 Posts: 889 Location: Can o' Scruz
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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WOOHOO! Dave got something done on his project!
Now you just have to do SOMETHING to it for 15-30 minutes a day & you'll be able to drive it. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Last edited by TDCTDI on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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swavananda wrote: |
Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me |
One of the greatest things about these forums is that there are so many minds at work.
I made a tutorial, it worked flawlessly for me.
Others are more than welcome to build upon a tutorial or do things entirely differently based upon their skills and inventory of tools,
I'm not one for cutting off captured nuts, and if you had a top frame in front of you it would become quite obvious how hard that would be to do on this nut.
Go for it! Show us how you would do it.
No need to weld a nut on a perfectly good screw slot.
In my way of thinking The nut welding comes after all else has failed.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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I guess the Ghia community is gonna have to goad Dave into a daily tutorial.
What's your process for dismantling the rest of the top frame? _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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swavananda Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009 Posts: 889 Location: Can o' Scruz
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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djkeev wrote: |
swavananda wrote: |
Nicely done. But up to the reader about the best technique . Mig welding a nut to the face and using MAPP gas on the thread capture area will definitely do it. 'warping'' the bolt it is nonsense . It is using tools already in owners possession and no need to modify another tool or spend lots of extra money on something that is hardly used after. . The nut can be ground off and bolt clean up and reused. Occam's razor for me |
One of the greatest things about these forums is that there are so many minds at work.
I made a tutorial, it worked flawlessly for me.
Others are more than welcome to build upon a tutorial or do things entirely differently based upon their skills and inventory of tools,
I'm not one for cutting off captured nuts, and if you had a top frame in front of you it would become quite obvious how hard that would be to do on this nut.
Go for it! Show us how you would do it.
No need to weld a nut on a perfectly good screw slot.
In my way of thinking The nut welding comes after all else has failed.
Dave |
I actually did redo my own top and know the intricacies well . I made no reference to cutting off anything ? Only heating the same area you did with MAPP will be effective.
You suggested to go out and spend money....... but I go with the assumption the not every one here has extra money .
Grinding the bolt after and refreshing it would be half the time it would take to cut up an extension to make a drive bit. If a mig welder isn't owned then a impact bit driver definitely is the way to go. Just like diagnosing a problem , go with the cheapest part first. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1031 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Convertible Header Junction-to-Top Frame Screw removal |
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You can't help but love and appreciate the Samba community. I can't think of a bigger repository of collective ACVW knowledge; not to mention all the ancillary knowledge available as well. Thanks to all the sugestions provuded in this thread I was able to cobble together a solution for removing the pesky screw. Here is what I ended up doing:
Tools Used (MAP gas torch not shown)
After mangling a cold chisel, and failing at using it to remove the screw, I modified one of my air hammer chisels and fashioned a perfectly sized impact driver bit.
There was not enough "good" material on the screw head for the driver bit to grab so I used the spot weld cutter chisel from my air hammer set to cut a deeper groove in the screw head.
I attached a pair of Vice-Grip pliers to the chisel bit then applied heat to the captive nut using the MAP gas torch. I was not able to get it red but apparently the heat did it's job. While Using the air hammer to apply downward pressure on, and vibration to, the screw head, I attempted to turn it using the pliers. It eventually moved so I employed the technique demonstrated by djkeev of working it back and forth in small increments. It took only a few minutes to get the screw completely out. some 3-in-1 oil was used on the threads as the screw was worked in place.
The successful removal of the screw was brought to you by the many contributions to this thread, the letter "G" and the number "4"
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Emil _________________
It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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