Did I buy a fraudulent van?

[elizer]

Ya I get that. Just trying to see how if by chance CBP allows him to keep the doka and just pay the duties if they would classify it as a truck and put a larger tax on it. Maybe if they see the title and see that a doka is listed as something other than a truck he will just pay the regular %

Another question. What are Canadian import laws like? Do they need a title or will just a bill of sale work? Can the OP sell or gift it to a samba member... have them register/title it and then buy it back and import it back in?

I am just spitballing here.

[caravelle c]

I think it's an illegal immigrant Doka from Germany/Sweden, that came thru Canada or Mexico, and someone didn't want to pay the 25% chicken tax.

You can find out on http://www.vw-mplate.com/mcode.php?lang=EN&p3_..._MMM12=MMM where it was first delivered. It could be helpful.

[sambathrowaway]

[caravelle c]

The best source is the sticker under the fuse box. Unfortunately it isn't there anymore.

[AZ Landshaper]

Did u run either vin through one of those data bases? theres a free service that will give you a history of the vehicle. I used one to find the true mileage on a horrendously decayed vanagon I found in south Texas. No one in their right mind would think this vehicle actually had 36k on it unless it sat on a bombing range for 5 years.

Either way run the vins and see what comes to light. Edit: I see on page 2 you did a carfax.
_________________
Support Small Business.

-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug.

[sambathrowaway]

[82westyrabbit]

I know you have burned bridges with the previous owner. But I would try to make up and get a bill of sale with the correct numbers on it. You have a very unique truck that wasn’t imported to this country. I bet you could resell it for close to what you paid for it even with the messed up paperwork telling the new owner everything. Someone knows how to fix’s this and the right person will do it quickly and easily. I always thought New Hampshire was the state to get paper work problems fixed but both Vermont and New Hampshire are a long way from you. I have worked through problems like this on airplanes several times and I have imported several as well. But this is a slightly different animal. I know that people are bad mouthing the previous owner but we do need to look from his point of view for a minute. As far as he was concerned the paperwork was good and no problem. He did not mean to put you in this spot.He wanted you to go away happy. Most of us who deal in unusual vehicles keep a vehicle until we see something we like better. Then we sell what we have and buy it. Once the first vehicle is gone we go and buy the new one. So when someone comes back 30 days later and says they want their money back that money is probably long gone. So unless he refinances his house or something he and you are probably out of luck. The vehicle is sort of legally registered drive it and have some fun until you can get it sorted out. I know bad feelings are hard to get rid of but it will take a little time to get this sorted out. Go to the previous owner tell him you really like the truck and you are going to sort this out so he knows he is off the hook and I think he will start to be helpful. Bust of luck. John

[kamzcab86]

[sambathrowaway]

[Bub]

I wasn't going to speak up..but I figured I might (with a flame suit on) because I sometimes look at things like this from a different angle.
I haven't read EVERY detail, but it sounds like you're sort of hosed from a *legal* standpoint since the seller isn't going to help.
So, with that out of the way what can you do? How do you salvage the mess?
I can think of one *HYPOTHETICAL* way to do it and the legality of it could come off as sketchy; but the bottom line is the State Patrol and DOL/ really sort of doesn't care (the less they know the better) whats up with it as long as you file the paperworks and jump through the hoops.
I have had this exact situation with a motorcycle (except there's no dash/ mismatched removable vin) and it worked out fine.
Your title and dash is garbage, they seem useless to the situation. Get rid of the vin plate on the dash.
You submit a vin search for the chassis to the DOL in whatever state you want it titled in. Obviously it'll come back as 'Not in the System'. You then have to come up with someone willing to say they sold/gave you the vehicle as parts/incomplete with the origin of the van unknown.
State Patrol inspection of the Van in good legal running condition will get you a new VIN plate and a 3-year legal title and registration in your name.
During that 3 years if nobody comes forward to claim ownership or report the vehicle as missing/stolen the legal title is created and it's yours 100% legally forever.
This may not cover a a bunch of ways you could still have issues but it's a path forward with what seems like very little liability if nobody is looking for the Van with the correct foreign vin now.

I know..it's on the sketchy side of what you should ever have to consider..but, I really can't think of a way that's seems like you can recover from this short of litigation..
_________________

[sambathrowaway]

Thanks for this Bub, I have some folks who have stepped up to help me negotiate this exact process... this is definitely how it is supposed to work in WA state if you acquire a US vehicle which has not title like if you find a Ford F-1 in a field on your property or something. I guess the wildcard is whether the VIN being in a foreign format will trip things up, cause questions from customs, and so on.

Kamz, hope I did not come off as unthankful when I clarified that the KH is from the VIN, I appreciate you looking into it.

I spent about 30 minutes with a variety of lights in different spectrums as well as some toluene and a rag and think I have deciphered some of the sticker beneath the fuses. I am including some enhanced pictures to show what I am working with there, you have to use the relief of the stamp on the sticker to see a bit of what is painted over. The end of the VIN matches what I see on the rest of the van so the sticker is original.

The second picture looks a LOT better than it is in real life, in real life it is completely painted white so I am doing some shade tree forensics here and also casting light from an angle.

I am including the decipher below, looks like Swedish.

M-Plate content
Model Type 2 (T3) mod. 247 :
- Double-cabin pick-up
- LHD
Chassis number WV2zzz24 z KH012345
Serial number 012 345
Modelyear 1989
Planned production date
Wednesday, 03 August 1988
Number for production planning
(temporary serial number) 0050
Type of engine Wattercooled Flat 4 - 2109cc (DJ), 82 kW (112 bhp DIN)
Type of transmission AAP - Manual 5-speed gearbox
Paint color L90E - Alpine White 78
Destination Sweden - North

062 Convex right rearview mirror and belts for rear -
288 Headlight washer -
340 Driver seat with heated seat and back 245-256
642 Frost protection to -35 Celsius for cold countries -
652 Windscreen wipers with intermittent mode 245-256
950 Plastic hubcaps -
954 Michelin tires XTX 185R14C 8PR -

[E1]

I'm not entirely clear if you're able to read every digit but if not, if you want to email me one or both I'd be happy to run them through Lightroom and see if I can get more legibility from them. That app does amazing things when tweaked correctly and can often get something from absolutely nothing.

Very impressed how you've handled this. Well done.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[82westyrabbit]

This is going back a long way in my brain. I traded a running car for pickup truck with a bad motor (It just happened to brake down in front of the shop where I worked). I sent him home with my beater car and title and what a shock he never got me the title to the truck. I put an engine in the truck and to sell it I had to buy a bond for three years. The bond was not much money and it was no big deal. This was done in Vermont. There must be ways to do a similar process in other states as well. I just happened to call a friend of mine on other business today who makes a living importing and exporting cars from Canada. He said he would try to find the last time it was registered in Canada (assuming it was) to see if you could put a paper trail together to find the last person the van was titled to. John

[termuehlen]

Since the vehicle is from Sweden, maybe Busman.be could research some historical vehicle information and possibly Sweden export paperwork?
_________________
1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx

[Abscate]

If I sold something to someone that turned out to have a title problem like this, I would return every cent the gave me plus what they spent, on return.

I would not do business with anyone who wouldn’t, ever again.
_________________
.ssS!

[allenw]

Since you are in Washington state I will share an experience I had keep in mind this was back in the mid 90's. I had a room mate that left and did not take his 1980 dodge challenger. time went by and he never came back for the car, after 2 years I contacted the Washington DMV and declared it as an abandon vehicle. I had it tilted as roommate as the legal owner me as the registered owner. When 3 years had passed I got title with me as the titled and registered owner. I latter moved to Indiana where I sold the car and the new owners had no problems swapping the title in their name. This may be an avenue if the laws for abandon vehicles has not changed,

[davevickery]

I find it hard to believe that As-Is laws apply to a fraudulent title. Unless it was agreed that it was for parts only I can't see a judge being ok with this.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is a way to get it titled under the chassis vin. Since it is here and titled now it also wouldn't surprise if the customs issues never come up. That is a different agency.

[crazyvwvanman]

This title path was closed off by California for grey markets cars a few years back. It is fine for cars original to the US market but not for foreign market cars brought here. Don't know about other states. It doesn't help much to have it titled first in another state for moving it to Calif, they can still challenge its legitimacy.

Mark

[hans j]

I've seen it a few times now. There is even one listed currently that has the wrong vin. I texted him about it letting him know and they had no idea, and apparently don't care.

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4814831?ad_cid=4

No syncro was ever built in Hannover and the vin also states it's a passenger van.

There's another one in town like that too. I let the owner know and he didn't care. It was originally a Canadian syncro westy but is now titled as a earlier model passenger van that donated it's dash, all doors, and the entire front nose...
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[BavarianWrench]

I bought a Syncro out of Germany. Denver Colorado was a nice, but tough place to bring the van into. The import was through a California Port. Colorado DMV was very strict about the import paperwork. For the first time ever they were very critical about my bill of sale Doc. They wanted it notarized by a Colorado Notary. The DMV clerk said "Oh just get the Bill Of Sale Notarized". I mentioned she already has seen it, and it was signed and not notarized. She gave me the wink wink, just get it notarized and all will be fine. I could not bring myself to ask a notary to compromise themselves and then return to DMV compromised myself. I was getting nervous about being stuck with an expensive parts van. We worked out a bill of sale that included some language including
"VIN Number __W__V_2_Z_Z_Z__25_Z_H__G_0___________
I/we affirm to be the true and lawful owner of said vehicle and the vehicle is free and clear of all liens and encumbrances. Under penalty of perjury in the second degree, we swear and affirm that the above information is true and correct to the best of our knowledge."

I deleted a few numbers obviously. I ad this to your story to help others who might be bringing in a van. For you, if you can not prove the van came into the US properly, DMV in Colorado will Flag your VIN and it gets labeled a problem, nationally I think? Be Careful who sees you actual VIN. My story had a happy ending and was able to be made a legit import. At the time I went through this there were two vans on theSamba that were for sale with title issues. I wish you the best. I was lucky remaining on good Terms with the seller. Without his help and signing the second Bill of Sale I was not going to legally register my van in the US. Some states may be less strict then others?