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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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I was with a buddy at an NHRA Top Fuel event, and we were watching a MSD tech go through some magnetos. He had a similar little gauge that opened up wider to test the spark, only it was about 16 inches wide. After the “tune up” was done, the gauge was opened up, the mag spun up to rpm, and a spark about a 1/4 of an inch wide jumped the full gap!
The highest amperage out of a spark from a coil I’ve found with running a MSD 6AL is Crane/Fast’s PS-60 canister coil. It only has 54 turns, and .400 ohms resistance. That’s almost double the amperage of MSD’s common 8202 Blaster 100 turn canister coils. If you think getting bit by a Bosch Blue coil with a MSD box hurts, a PS-60 coil feels like someone just broke a 2x4 across your deltoid. |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Fred's reply:
Hi Norris, Not likely that you would gain anything. What blaster coil were you considering? I could look up the specs and make an armchair judgement (testing is the only way to know for sure), but the one you have which is fairly high inductance on the primary works well with this CDI especially on a 4 cylinder. This CDI mates itself well to almost any Kettering type coil. It is the coil characteristics that define the duration and multiple spark events from this CDI. Some CDIs are brute force in that they output their energy in a timed sequence independent of the coil reactance. Sometimes this means that a lot of energy is wasted as the coil opposes energy transfer. This CDI just swings with the inductance so more energy goes into the spark despite having the 'wrong' type of coil for CDI. Normally most CDIs require a coil with very low inductance, but this one takes advantage of that inductance to prolong the spark event by storing energy in the inductance, recharging the capacitor from that stored energy, and giving it back quickly multiple times after the initial capacitor discharge via the SCR. There is another circuit element that allows this to happen plus the power supply that adds to the energy transfer during the total spark event. Spark event being defined as at least 3 sparks of opposite polarity about 100 microseconds apart. Often more than 3 and up to 6. Fred
Fred's an awesome dude. Really knows his stuff and extremely helpful.
BTW, Fred's dad originally designed his CDI for an old VW many years ago....that makes it even cooler to me. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26789 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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I learned a lot from Mr. Winterburn and I agree many of his ideas as far as what makes a good CDI for our purposes.
A lot of CDI ignitions are more AIMED at, for instance, firing a alky fueled v8 at 7k rpm. Which is no easy job, of course.
Once I realized that, it made a lot more sense why it is how it is.
That makes them a bit overkill for us. Nothing wrong with overkill!!
But, 450 volts to the coil can be hard on coils, and the very fast and high current s[ark you can make with that is also hard on a lot of the ignition system parts. One of the leading causes of the MSD 6al failing has been found to be that the cheap MSD brand coils are shorting internally. OOPS |
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Emeraldlion Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: Texarkana, TX
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Great info on the cdi. Knew the moment I reached out to Frederick his product and service would be second to none. Thanks Norris |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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norris wrote: |
Fred's reply:
Hi Norris, Not likely that you would gain anything. What blaster coil were you considering? I could look up the specs and make an armchair judgement (testing is the only way to know for sure), but the one you have which is fairly high inductance on the primary works well with this CDI especially on a 4 cylinder. This CDI mates itself well to almost any Kettering type coil. It is the coil characteristics that define the duration and multiple spark events from this CDI. Some CDIs are brute force in that they output their energy in a timed sequence independent of the coil reactance. Sometimes this means that a lot of energy is wasted as the coil opposes energy transfer. This CDI just swings with the inductance so more energy goes into the spark despite having the 'wrong' type of coil for CDI. Normally most CDIs require a coil with very low inductance, but this one takes advantage of that inductance to prolong the spark event by storing energy in the inductance, recharging the capacitor from that stored energy, and giving it back quickly multiple times after the initial capacitor discharge via the SCR. There is another circuit element that allows this to happen plus the power supply that adds to the energy transfer during the total spark event. Spark event being defined as at least 3 sparks of opposite polarity about 100 microseconds apart. Often more than 3 and up to 6. Fred
Fred's an awesome dude. Really knows his stuff and extremely helpful.
BTW, Fred's dad originally designed his CDI for an old VW many years ago....that makes it even cooler to me. |
Norris,
First, it would be AWESOME if we could see the winterburn and bosch blue in action.
I simply pull a plug wire, connect it to the spark tester, start the engine, and see the spark.
For $10, every VW guy should have one of these spark testers. Its just to fun to see! Just make sure its grounded, and none of the wires are close to getting sucked into the fan belt. Also preferable that your not in a situation were you turn out to be a more suitable ground😊
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F171654160913
I can understand what Freds saying. Also, Bosch blue is a 3.3ohm coil, and if you want to retain your ability to switch back to points, you need to stay in the 3ohm primary range. (Or drive around with 2 coils in your car.)
Does the Winterburn wiring allow 2 coils? Say if you want the blue on points mode and a hotter coil on CDI mode? If so, that would be a cool way to go. (If both are wired and you dont need to switch wires in a event needing to switch back to non cdi)
Maybe you dont go to a Blaster SS that has a primary resistance of .355, but how about a Magnaspark E-Core Coil that has a Primary resistance of 1.1? That might be a good fit for the Winterburn. Full specs of the Magnaspark coil below.
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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I have a tester just like yours. I’m out of town today but should get to it tomorrow. |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Spark in my 2276 with a Winterburn CDI/Bosch 010/Brazillian Bosch Blue:
https://youtu.be/dYm2Ml2KJdc
My first YouTube attempt so forgive the quality. Hope it works.
I'd like to go with something like a MSD Blaster to get a stronger spark. Not sure it would be worth it and I realize that if I do I probably can't just switch back to Kettering via the switch on the CDI without changing coils.
Thoughts? |
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j-dub Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 865 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Just bought one of those coil testers so I can do some experimenting myself.
Norris, did you try to back the screw off and see how far the spark would go? or was that the limit? I think I remember jpaul showing it going much further with his coil. _________________ 1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Just ordered one, I will test on my MSD 7AL with Black, HVC-II Coil. Should be able to jump the gap. |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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norris wrote: |
Spark in my 2276 with a Winterburn CDI/Bosch 010/Brazillian Bosch Blue:
https://youtu.be/dYm2Ml2KJdc
My first YouTube attempt so forgive the quality. Hope it works.
I'd like to go with something like a MSD Blaster to get a stronger spark. Not sure it would be worth it and I realize that if I do I probably can't just switch back to Kettering via the switch on the CDI without changing coils.
Thoughts? |
The more intense the spark is, the more wear will occur on components. I have a 6AL with an 009 on my Super for RPM limiters. For a commonly driven vehicle, it trashes components in about a 1/4 the time of a standard Bosch Blue Coil. A lower turns ratio coil will increase the amperage of the spark. |
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ps2375 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2014 Posts: 2471 Location: Meridian,ID
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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I just installed the 55KV coil in my car today, seemed to run better, but I hadn't driven it for a couple of days, so no real easy way to tell. |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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12mm is about the max the spark will jump consistently without a skip. What the video shows is right at 10mm. The car literally runs perfectly. The jetting is right on verified by wideband. I’m just playing around now, but always looking to “make it better”! I should probably leave well enough alone....but just can’t do it 😉 Really fun stuff! |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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ivkings4 wrote: |
Just ordered one, I will test on my MSD 7AL with Black, HVC-II Coil. Should be able to jump the gap. |
I cant wait to see!! That HVC-2 is serious |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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norris wrote: |
Spark in my 2276 with a Winterburn CDI/Bosch 010/Brazillian Bosch Blue:
https://youtu.be/dYm2Ml2KJdc
My first YouTube attempt so forgive the quality. Hope it works.
I'd like to go with something like a MSD Blaster to get a stronger spark. Not sure it would be worth it and I realize that if I do I probably can't just switch back to Kettering via the switch on the CDI without changing coils.
Thoughts? |
Hey you got it loaded up that's awesome!! It definitely has more spark jumping capability then the Bosch blue by itself. |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3466 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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norris wrote: |
12mm is about the max the spark will jump consistently without a skip. What the video shows is right at 10mm. The car literally runs perfectly. The jetting is right on verified by wideband. I’m just playing around now, but always looking to “make it better”! I should probably leave well enough alone....but just can’t do it 😉 Really fun stuff! |
Its definitely fun to learn about, and improve upon.
Alstrup has given me some pointers on how to get a hot spark, and also the value of a good spark when it comes to horsepower/efficiency. He also has been playing with some Plasma ignition systems, and if anyone hasn't looked into them, its something every gearhead should learn about.
It was mentioned that the higher amperage from the Higher amperage coils trashes ignition components. Great way to segment into a solution to that issue. (I personally wouldn't mind replacing cap/rotors/plugs more often for the value of a hot spark. I have went 30k on MSD 6BTM, Blaster, Probillet, cap,rotor, and plugs, but even if it went only 15k its worth it)
But would if we left the wimpy bosch spark alone, and amplify the spark AFTER the distributor? What if we take a 30ma spark and step it up to 200amps? We get Plasma. Its so intense it burns everything around it. It burns all the stuff the normal spark can never reach. Make more horsepower on lower octane, lower emissions, and we still have caps/rotors/coils that go a million years.
Some fun stuff to look at. Apparently after some Dyno tests, David Vizard is now a believer too.
http://www.ionfireignition.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qzxPF3RfOs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEOOXbshQc
http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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I think after a point you gain nothing making a hotter spark that instead you need to focus on a smarter spark exactly at the tight time
After all people are putting down 1000 horsepower to the ground with boosted LS motors and stock GM coils |
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Fred Winterburn Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013 Posts: 423 Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Don't expect extremely high voltage with this CDI. It purposely doesn't have high voltage. That's how plug wires and distributor caps can last 200 thousand miles or more using it. The advantage of CDI is that you can get away with a lot less available voltage. Under adverse conditions such as fouling, the CDI will maintain a much higher voltage and keep on firing the plug when an inductive system that has a long high voltage spark under good conditions might not. Fred
norris wrote: |
12mm is about the max the spark will jump consistently without a skip. What the video shows is right at 10mm. The car literally runs perfectly. The jetting is right on verified by wideband. I’m just playing around now, but always looking to “make it better”! I should probably leave well enough alone....but just can’t do it 😉 Really fun stuff! |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Think I'll leave well enough alone.....very pleased with what I have. As usual, I learn a lot from these threads.
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20380 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Krochus wrote: |
I think after a point you gain nothing making a hotter spark that instead you need to focus on a smarter spark exactly at the tight time
After all people are putting down 1000 horsepower to the ground with boosted LS motors and stock GM coils |
Yeah and they are using crank fire and COP and injection....
The days of the carb and distributor are over from new age factory engines.....
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Upgraded ignition Spark Comparison (video included) |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Krochus wrote: |
I think after a point you gain nothing making a hotter spark that instead you need to focus on a smarter spark exactly at the tight time
After all people are putting down 1000 horsepower to the ground with boosted LS motors and stock GM coils |
Yeah and they are using crank fire and COP and injection....
The days of the carb and distributor are over from new age factory engines.....
Dale |
The point being from a voltage output a modern low resistance coil can provide enough spark for insane cylinder pressures. No need for fancy plasma rifles in the 40 megawatt range
From a spark standpoint there is a point where enough is enough. Mostly with a coil under 1 ohm on the primary side. |
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