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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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I added a switch to turn off my radio memory. When I drove the car everyday it was never an issue.
I checked the parasitic drain and found 8.48 mA then pulled fuse #9 which the radio is connected both memory and power dropped to 4.82 mA.
In order to find where that was I pulled the R/W from the VR to fuse box and it was still there then pulled the R/W wire from the battery to voltage regulator which is the new electronic type then had no draw .
I called Bosch yet they could not tell me if this was normal or not , I doubt it is, they had no idea how it works and no schematic to offer. It does charge 14.2 volts .
Since I drive so little I connect my charger on the 2 amp setting and plug the charger into a timer set for 2 hours and can leave it this way as the charger powers on/off via the timer since it's a manual type charger. With the charger connected I also checked to see if it might draw when connected and off and it does not.
I never checked for parasitic drain before of when I installed the new electronic VR so I have no idea if there is an issue with the VR. It's been on this car since 97.
If anyone has the electronic voltage regulator let me know if you find the same thing because this draw leads me to think it has some issue . |
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DHanna
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Joined: June 15, 2004
Posts: 240
Location: North Richmond, N.S.W Aust.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
This is very interesting. Since I'm using the same coupler and since my horn circuit is also hot all the time, I am curious to check for any parasitic draw on my battery.
My car doesn't usually sit for 3 weeks at a time except for maybe in the dead of winter when they've bombarded the roads with salt. But I usually keep it on a battery tender if it is going to sit for a long time so I haven't had any issues of the battery draining low enough to keep the car from starting. But now you've got me curious. |
Yes, this IS very interesting. I don't have my horn hooked up, but the parasitic drain thru the coupler is interesting. On my own car, I have to disconnect the power to the radio/CD player, or the battery will be dead in 2 weeks from maintaining the presets and clock function of the radio. |
That is what I had with the cd/radio as well Bobnotch. Had to put it on the ignition circuit with the horn. I don't have a problem with the horn like Peter. Sometimes my car doesn't get driven for months. I picked up a new coupler for Peter but has the same problem as the one he has already. Peter's van is the Aussie produced one which has the indicator switch as a Bug from the same era so I can't check that as I haven't had that sort of Type 3 since 1967. The one I have is the fully imported version the same as you got in America. I think the wiring should be the same. I'm going to pull the steering wheel area apart as well as checking the coupler over the weekend and do some investigation.
With these couplers, a multimeter shows 12v at all bushes when tested with a battery connected on the bench. As said previously though, only a few milli amps.
DH |
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
I just found some notes here and there on-line.....about the "Tenpu" fiber inside of these. It is a carbon fiber composite......so its quite possible that the fiber itself is conductive.
It "should" in most cases....depending on position of the fiber bumdles and the steel bushings when molding......be insulated from the stedl bushings if the rubber during molding squeezes in properly.
I think its what I was getting at in my last post. There is a cuttaway in one of the drawings on their site. The steel part that surrounds the metal tube that the bolts you through.....are technically steel flanged grommets.....meaning they have an inner and outer flange. As you tighten the nuts.....it can squeeze the grommets together....squeezing the fibers looped around the post....closer together and making contact between carbon fibers....inner metal tubes....and steel grommets.
Understand.....you "could" if they are loose.....remove the steel tubes and replace them with simple glass filled Delrin tubes. You do not have to tighten the bolts until they squeeze the rubber donut. This is why they use nuts with cotter pins.....so that you do not have yo tighten jt down until the nuts reach a torque level. You tighten it up enough to remove all slack...then put in the cotter pins to prevent them backing off.
Ray |
Ray, what are your thoughts on getting a steering coupler made from delrin or another high density poly plastic ?
i know delrin is very strong and i found a bmw site selling delrin couplers.
https://www.bbmgarage.com.au/products/delrin-steering-coupling-e30
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1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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Its dangerous in too many ways. Delrin is strong enough to bend things when it should flex wnd brittle enough in this location to crack when it shouldnt.
Oddly.....from reading various accounts here and there...its not clear that the origibal discs tjrough certain years....were not actually somewhat conductive to a small amount. After all... the factory later made the radio a seperate power link.
But.....through several of these threads about the coupler....I have mentioned that for what this coupler does.....in our cars...as compared to the other industrial shaft couplers this company makes.....you could eazily MAKE a perfectly functional coupling disc out of readily available, multi-layer, rag fiber reinforced Buna Nitrile or Viton rubber sheet.
All of the other BS in other threads....about it "must" only flex/bend so far in your hand....is truly un-scientific bullshit. Thats not even the main functional check of any rubber product. You could pass that test in one persons "hand" and still have a POS coupling disc.
As the factory literature even noted.....they carefully check flex, torsion and durometer. You can have a really hard durometer disc.....and it still comes apart from totally incorrect rebound or modulus of elasticity. You could have a perfect disc and fail it because you can flex it in your hand and consider it defective.
The characteristic that allows a part like this to bend in half.....is not even remotely the characteristic that gives it good torsional strength in the opposite plane.
I would try to make one...if you want to go that route.....out of reinforced Nitrile or Neoprene you can buy,sheets up to 1/2" thick with a layer of fabric reinforcing every 1/16th inch at Mcmaster Carr. Ray |
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old_man
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Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1382
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:48 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| I noticed EMPI makes asolid urethane disk. I wonder if it is a decent replacement or too stiff. |
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ataraxia
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:09 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| old_man wrote: |
| I noticed EMPI makes asolid urethane disk. I wonder if it is a decent replacement or too stiff. |
Not a decent replacement at all...
Here's my favorite reference to them on this site:
| didget69 wrote: |
These are stronger than the urethane couplers...
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| old_man wrote: |
| I noticed EMPI makes asolid urethane disk. I wonder if it is a decent replacement or too stiff. |
Not a decent replacement at all...
Here's my favorite reference to them on this site:
| didget69 wrote: |
These are stronger than the urethane couplers...
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Yep...totally agree. Its not that urethane is a poor material. Its very high performance. Its just the WRONG material for this application.
First....which urethane is it....out of the literally tens of thousands of formulations.....each very different?
Also....its not just hardness (durometer) that is important with urethane. Its.....and this is difficult to put into one term.....density. Depending on formulation...you could have a hard urethane (hard to compress)....but very stretchy...meaning high rebound energy. These make great industrial springs. Or soft....with virtually no rebound energy. In urethane these two things can be diametrically opposed.....as compared to fairly standard rubber types where one trait follows the other.
So you can have a hard, high tensile urethane that also does something strange....like tear easily.
Also ....and this is a big problem....urethane gear shift and steering couplers....if they are the right formulation....work great. But....only if you treat them like a replacement part and plan to replace them every 3-5 years.
Urethanes are catalyzed resins. They day they are mixed and cast.....they start a life long process of getting harder and harder as they continue to cure. Typical urethanes increase durometer at an AVERAGE rate of 3-5% per year. Some even faster.
During this time.....as they get harder....some get less springy and some get more springy. All of them start to shrink and all will eventually crack.
Wrong material. Ray |
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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some pics from the final update...
installed 50 year old coupler with a few cracks in it
(sorry the pic didnt save on my phone for some reason)
but got the pics of current draw 0.00mA
and no resistance with the battery disconnected
sorry for the blurry dark pics but its a crappy day today and the cars in the shed
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1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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DHanna
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2004
Posts: 240
Location: North Richmond, N.S.W Aust.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:22 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| Peters Van wrote: |
some pics from the final update...
installed 50 year old coupler with a few cracks in it
(sorry the pic didnt save on my phone for some reason)
but got the pics of current draw 0.00mA
and no resistance with the battery disconnected
sorry for the blurry dark pics but its a crappy day today and the cars in the shed |
Same results here Peter. I picked up an old one from George and Cody yesterday which is zero. The one on my car is the same as your new one and gives the same results with multi meter reading. I stuck a couple of pins into the reinforcing area which confirms that the reinforcing material has changed to a conductive one. I might change the + to term 30 rather than ignition switched connection to see what happens over a few weeks.
No wonder you were in the shed as it looks like you had a max of about 8 deg C today!! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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This is interesting. As I noted...from what I can find the "Tenpu" fiber stuff they use inside has some carbon fiber content. In contact with the cast in steel flange bushings for the through bolts...this "MUST" be whats causing the problem.
If the overall hardness and construction are otherwise...excellent....wondering why the issue could not be solved with non conductive flange bushing inserts.
Its not like the bolts re designed to have to squeeze down and compress that much. They just have to be tight enough to keep axial play on the bolts out of the picture.
I am betting you can simply drive out the tube bushing and slip in glass filled delrin or something similar. Ray |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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Just to add into the end of this thread and also to satisfy my own curiosity:
As I mentioned earlier I'm running the same SGF brand coupler that was giving OP trouble. Today I was screwing around in the garage and decided to measure the draw on the battery with the car off.
Caveat: I have changed my horn system from stock. Stock early Type 3 uses a single horn which is powered via 30, so it's hot all the time regardless of ignition switch position. Stock system does not use a relay.
I upgraded my horn to Ghia-style dual horns with a relay. I wired a 10 gauge cable direct from battery to terminal 30 on the relay, so it is still hot all the time. At the relay, I jumpered 30 over to 86 so that the relay coil is hot all the time too. Then I connected relay ground (85) to the wire that runs up to the horn bar so when I push the horn bar, it grounds the relay coil and the horns sound. This ground path is the same as the original horn. Horns are now individually grounded to the body near their installed location.
I disconnected the ground strap from battery and turned off the interior light. I have no electronics like a stereo that would have a parasitic draw. I have the stock clock but that should only draw every so often when it re-winds the spring.
The only thing that I have that may cause a draw is my electronic MOSFET voltage regulator but I don't know if that draws or not when the car is off.
At any rate, I measured a 13 mA draw.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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"I upgraded my horn to Ghia-style dual horns with a relay. I wired a 10 gauge cable direct from battery to terminal 30 on the relay, so it is still hot all the time. At the relay, I jumpered 30 over to 86 so that the relay coil is hot all the time too. Then I connected relay ground (85) to the wire that runs up to the horn bar so when I push the horn bar, it grounds the relay coil and the horns sound. This ground path is the same as the original horn. Horns are now individually grounded to the body near their installed location."
your horn is now wired this way
but if the switching for the horn button is still the same as original you may still have current draw through the coupler to the relay.
originally positive goes from the fusebox to the horn.
the earth for the horn starts at the steering box which is grounded to the car.
the coupler isolates the steering box from the steering column.
the earth wire is on the box side of the coupler and runs up the inside of the steering column and is isolated from it by the coating on the wire.
the horn button and ring make contact with the outer column tube which has a tab on it at the bottom end and a wire from here goes through the body to a single wire connector under the dash and then into the front part of the harness to the horn.
the outer column is isolated from the body by a rubber grommet at the bottom there it goes through the body and rubber mount under the dash holding the tube up.
the steering column itself is isolated from the outer tube by the bearing at the steering wheel end and the coupler at the steering box end.
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1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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should have said the easiest way to determine if you have current flow and what is causing it is to put a meter in series with the battery positive..
then remove the fuses 1 at a time to determine what circuit is causing the problem. then whatever circuit it is work your way testing from there.
to prove the voltage regulator remove all the fuses and see if you have current flow. if yes remove the out put wire of the regulator to see if it is the generator.
simple process of elimination.
when i say simple its only taken me a year to work my problem out.
but saying that the horn earth switching circuit isnt that easy to work out.
looking at the vw wiring diagram it looks simple !!!! just a brown wire !!!!
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1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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DHanna
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2004
Posts: 240
Location: North Richmond, N.S.W Aust.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
This is interesting. As I noted...from what I can find the "Tenpu" fiber stuff they use inside has some carbon fiber content. In contact with the cast in steel flange bushings for the through bolts...this "MUST" be whats causing the problem.
If the overall hardness and construction are otherwise...excellent....wondering why the issue could not be solved with non conductive flange bushing inserts.
Its not like the bolts re designed to have to squeeze down and compress that much. They just have to be tight enough to keep axial play on the bolts out of the picture.
I am betting you can simply drive out the tube bushing and slip in glass filled delrin or something similar. Ray |
Following up on raygreenwood's suggestion, the steel bushes are parallel and push out quite easy. Note that this a new item, not used. Here is the modified one with "Tufnol" bushes being pushed into place. Will have to install it and see how it stands up to use. Tufnol and similar reinforced phenolic resin material is widely used for bushes and gears with good strength and wear characteristics. Your thoughts Ray?
DH
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:10 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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that looks like an nice easy solution.
Dallas you may have to let me know where to get some "tufnol".
or you could become the worldwide distributor for modified steering couplers.
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1965 Type 3 Panel Van
1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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DHanna
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2004
Posts: 240
Location: North Richmond, N.S.W Aust.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:21 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| Peters Van wrote: |
that looks like an nice easy solution.
Dallas you may have to let me know where to get some "tufnol".
or you could become the worldwide distributor for modified steering couplers. |
Usually a bearing outlet like Bearing Services here in OZ did have it.
I couldn't find any in my workshop so got some off an old work mate. It was 1/2" dia solid so didn't need too much to machine to size and part off. How about I make 4 for you tomorrow and put it in the post. You will have it down there in a couple of days if the pony express (Aus Post!) is working.
I'll have to come for a drive dpwn there when the weather warms a bit.
D |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:28 am Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| DHanna wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
This is interesting. As I noted...from what I can find the "Tenpu" fiber stuff they use inside has some carbon fiber content. In contact with the cast in steel flange bushings for the through bolts...this "MUST" be whats causing the problem.
If the overall hardness and construction are otherwise...excellent....wondering why the issue could not be solved with non conductive flange bushing inserts.
Its not like the bolts re designed to have to squeeze down and compress that much. They just have to be tight enough to keep axial play on the bolts out of the picture.
I am betting you can simply drive out the tube bushing and slip in glass filled delrin or something similar. Ray |
Following up on raygreenwood's suggestion, the steel bushes are parallel and push out quite easy. Note that this a new item, not used. Here is the modified one with "Tufnol" bushes being pushed into place. Will have to install it and see how it stands up to use. Tufnol and similar reinforced phenolic resin material is widely used for bushes and gears with good strength and wear characteristics. Your thoughts Ray?
DH
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Excellent! It was exactly along the lines of what I was thinking about. And you should be able to put thin washers on the outside of each side to spread the bolt load if necessary. Ray |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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| Peters Van wrote: |
your horn is now wired this way
originally positive goes from the fusebox to the horn.
the earth for the horn starts at the steering box which is grounded to the car.
the coupler isolates the steering box from the steering column.
the earth wire is on the box side of the coupler |
I must disagree here... on my car, the wire coming down the column connects to a tab on the column side of the coupler. It goes under one of the bolts that does not connect to the column flange. That bolt carries the ground through the coupler to the other side where the bolt connects to the steering box flange.
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the horn button and ring make contact with the outer column tube which has a tab on it at the bottom end and a wire from here goes through the body to a single wire connector under the dash and then into the front part of the harness to the horn.
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Yes that connector under the dash is where I tied in for my relay ground. I simply unplugged the original ground wire from that connector and connected my relay ground wire to it. The original horn ground wire lies dormant in the harness, disconnected at both ends.
I should have mentioned that I don’t care that much about a 13mA draw. I have an Optima battery rated at 50 Ah so with a 13mA draw I’m looking at about 160 days to discharge the battery. 
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2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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ataraxia
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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Well, I'm hoping you figure it out - so I can copy your success.  |
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Peters Van
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Joined: March 27, 2014
Posts: 357
Location: Goulburn NSW Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: steering coupler disc |
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"I must disagree here... on my car, the wire coming down the column connects to a tab on the column side of the coupler. It goes under one of the bolts that does not connect to the column flange. That bolt carries the ground through the coupler to the other side where the bolt connects to the steering box flange."
electrically that is the same point....
i think vw moved the tab to the other side of the coupler so as not to rely on the the bolt itself for the connection and made the wire a little longer to reach...
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1963 EH Holden Station Wagon |
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