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advice for mild 36hp build
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

You are correct. The 1500 intake will be on the large side for a 1200 with stock cam and lowish CR. However, if you wish to keep the center mount carburettor an easy "slight" improvement is to take a manifold from a late type 1 1200 (34 hp Din) That manifoild is about 1,5 mm larger I.D. than the 30 hp version. Not a lot, but it will give basis for 4-5 hp more.

A friend of mine did a little experiment quite recently with a new industrial 1200 engine. It was dynoéd in at 34,5 hp stock. Then I improoved the ignition spark power a little and he replaced the stock rocker arms with 1,25/1,1 and upped the main jet from 125 to 130 in the 30 mm Pict2 carb. Then try again. Now it makes a whopping Very Happy 39,5 hp still at 3900 rpm. He says the driving experience is that the torque plateau is wider so it takes hills slightly better.
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TomSimon
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

It really depends on your budget. I'd give Juan Cole in Paradise, CA a call, JRC Enterprises. He's done a few mild 36hp builds for Bonneville and customers that run real good. Tell him what you've got, what your goals are, he knows a lot of the tricks. Maybe he can do a set of sp heads for you, help with piston selection, and a cam. Or maybe you just bite the bullet and have him build the entire engine. Tom Brucke is another guy, but he's retired, I don't think he takes on projects for others, too much like work.
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esde
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

TomSimon wrote:
It really depends on your budget. I'd give Juan Cole in Paradise, CA a call, JRC Enterprises. He's done a few mild 36hp builds for Bonneville and customers that run real good. Tell him what you've got, what your goals are, he knows a lot of the tricks. Maybe he can do a set of sp heads for you, help with piston selection, and a cam. Or maybe you just bite the bullet and have him build the entire engine. Tom Brucke is another guy, but he's retired, I don't think he takes on projects for others, too much like work.

Thanks for the heads up on JRC, I will give them a call later today. As for having someone else build the engine, well, that takes all the fun out of it for me. I'm finally at the point where I can bore and deck my own cases, line bore, etc.., but doing heads is a step beyond that with yet more specialized equipment. After having built several 1600 and larger (much larger) engines, mucking through old and new carbs, and then fuel injection, I got to wondering, just how hard is it to build a stock displacement 36hp that runs hard? Not something that's built right on the ragged edge of reliability, but rather ticks along with the reliability that VW is famous for.. I guess I will see.
SD
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

esde wrote:
... I got to wondering, just how hard is it to build a stock displacement 36hp that runs hard? Not something that's built right on the ragged edge of reliability, but rather ticks along with the reliability that VW is famous for.. I guess I will see.
SD


What's you definition of 'runs hard'? 10% power increase? 20%? Even 20% would be hard to do without some serious work. Increase displacement, increase your rpm, for higher HP is the rule. Like the 40hp and it's single shared ports, the 36hp is plagued by lack of breathing needed to support high rpms in stock form. We used to joke about putting a brick on the accelerator peddle of an old 40hp bug, loaded with a couple guys and gear, and send on on down the freeway without a care. It wasn't making enough power to overheat, the intake tract didn't breath well enough to over-rev, so you were good! LOL

I've only owned a couple 36hp powered cars over the last 40yrs, they are pretty slow. My theory as to why they lasted a long time is they didn't make enough power to hurt themselves.

I became interested in Burley's 36hp challenge classes abut 11yrs ago, have a couple engines started, but nothing complete yet, life has been getting in the way.

I will say this: if you look at a 36hp beside a 356 Porsche, beside a 40hp, beside a 1600, you really see the progression and evelution in performance and reliability. The 36hp has a bunch of things holding it back from realizing any real performance, starting with the intake tract, and the valve train. But still, there are a few things you can do to a little stock bore and stroke engine. You've likely read about a lot of them here. Darrel Vittone has one of the best 36hp engine programs going, but the parts alone are out of most people's budgets.

Forced induction is intriguing, though, but IMO a judson won't get you where you'd like to go. They just don't move enough air volume, and the sliding phenolic vane's fiction puts a lot of heat in the intake tract, accordin gto a couple guys who should know. But they look bitchin'! The Pepco replica roots-type blower by Speedwell might make some significant power on a stock 36hp. A small turbocharger sized for 1200cc might be just the ticket, with a side draft SU carb like Jerry Avis did on his latest incarnation has proven out.

a few tips: start with a case that has a good cam bore. The old 36hp engines didn't get a lit of love from most owners, dirty oil is a killer. most of the cases I pulled apart had oversize bores from wear, which will cause low oil pressure and rob the rod bearings of good oil flow, disaster for any high rpm engine.

Typical of any low performance oem engine, the heads need serious flow work to make any significant change in power and most importantly higher rpm breathing. On any performance engine, you'd ideally you'd see the back of the intake valve by opening the throttle blades and peering inside with a flashlight. You'll notice that through the evolution of 36hp, 40hp, T1, high performance and race T1 all have a few things in common as performance is increased. Intake tracts became straighter. That's where the power increase is, in any performance application.

The stock 36hp combustion chambers are antique as well, designed to run at low rpm on junk gasoline. Increased valve diameters, higher lift, more duration cam are all possible to a point, but the cam lobes line up perfectly with the connecting rod caps, limiting the lobe height. Ratio rockers are a way to get more lift, but you need stronger valve springs. It keeps going on and on.

Have you seen the stock 36hp sp heads that the Blackline Boys built for their Bonneville car? Their lifters are great, too, allowing you to use a type 1 style pushrod.

The Wolfsberg West Okrasa heads look decent. No Denzel design by any means (which were way ahead of their time when released) , but at least Okrasas are dual port. IMO what holds back the Okrasa design retaining the 0deg valve angle (Denzel is like 506deg, type 1 is 9deg) the antique open style combustion chamber (Denzel has a quench pad, so does type 1) and 90deg turn that the intake port makes just like a 40hp and type 1 sp (Denzel, 356, type 1 DP, every type 1 performance head have angles valves, angled intakes). Again, if you look at any high performance 1600 heads, any race head, even an off the shelf CB 044, you see the gentle intake port curve, bigger intake manifold volume under the carburetor, combustion chamber with a large quench pad and bigger valves that has proven to unlock power from the type 1, when compared to the type 1 sp stock head.

Enough of my rambling... I hope that is helpfull.
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esde
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

Excellent post and points TomSimon, thank you. After talking with several people, I see the hurdles involved in getting a stock 36 head to breath well. But, I will give it a shot.. As for power increase, I'm not just after peak increase, but hopefully a broader curve thats easier to drive. I was hoping for an 8-10 hp increase, but honestly that's just me hoping.
Good point on the cam bore, that's something I havent measured yet. If it needs it, who does line bore them for bearings? Rimco maybe?
SD
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

esde wrote:
cam bore, that's something I havent measured yet. If it needs it, who does line bore them for bearings? Rimco maybe?
SD


The 36hp cam rides directly on case aluminum, no bearing, like most 40hp VWs, a lot of motorcycles and modern Japanese automotive engines.

I am not aware of a repair for a worn out cam bore in a 36hp case. There's not enough material on the cam bearing bosses to support an oversize bore and bearing inserts (IF you could find some bearing inserts from a different engine).

Anything is possible, but the cost would keep most people from entertaining, say, building a custom boring bar to open up the 36hp case cam tunnel (which is smaller than T1) to +.010", then making a cam with oversize journals to suit.
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esde
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

Well, a short update as parts have been selected, ordered, and are starting to trickle in. I did sit down with the best looking case and measure the bearing bores. Main bearing bores are all still tight and should give proper crush on the bearings. The cam bore is a little harder to measure, being as small as it is, but I think my oil clearance is good. I'm going to check it again though.
Crank and flywheel went to DPR and got counterweighted, ground, 8 doweled and balanced. I traded a bunch of NOS 36hp cams and stuff to Aircooled Research in exchange for a stage 2 cam and reground lifters. Picked up a single Zenith and manifold for a 36. A nice set of NOS domed top pistons. And, I've found someone with VW head experience, to tackle a pair of these 36hp single port heads for me. The plan is simple: larger Okrasa 33mm intakes, hi rev springs, and improve the intake. I'll follow up with some pics soon.
SD
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

Sounds like a cool build!

Reminds me of a similar project i did for my 58 years ago, but I made up my own intakes and used dual 28Pict carbs with the chokes removed. A single Zenith has always been something I've wanted to try on a vintage themed build.



For the heads, wasn't one of the Bergs still doing 36 horse work?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

TomSimon wrote:
It really depends on your budget. I'd give Juan Cole in Paradise, CA a call, JRC Enterprises. He's done a few mild 36hp builds for Bonneville and customers that run real good. Tell him what you've got, what your goals are, he knows a lot of the tricks. Maybe he can do a set of sp heads for you, help with piston selection, and a cam. Or maybe you just bite the bullet and have him build the entire engine. Tom Brucke is another guy, but he's retired, I don't think he takes on projects for others, too much like work.


If his shop was in Paradise, CA, I sure hope he and his business is okay considering that it sounds as if Paradise got incinerated in the recent fire. Crossin' my fingers that he's okay...

Bill Bowman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: advice for mild 36hp build Reply with quote

BulliBill wrote:
TomSimon wrote:
It really depends on your budget. I'd give Juan Cole in Paradise, CA a call, JRC Enterprises. He's done a few mild 36hp builds for Bonneville and customers that run real good. Tell him what you've got, what your goals are, he knows a lot of the tricks. Maybe he can do a set of sp heads for you, help with piston selection, and a cam. Or maybe you just bite the bullet and have him build the entire engine. Tom Brucke is another guy, but he's retired, I don't think he takes on projects for others, too much like work.


If his shop was in Paradise, CA, I sure hope he and his business is okay considering that it sounds as if Paradise got incinerated in the recent fire. Crossin' my fingers that he's okay...

Bill Bowman


Yes thankfully Juan and his family are safe although they lost their home. His business premises are thought to be saved but that's hardly important...they are safe and that's all that matters.
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