| Author |
Message |
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
 |
|
| gears wrote: |
| One complaint of the Syncro version Peloquin is that it doesn't fully lock as easily as the OE Syncro diff .. as though the engagement lugs resist lining up. IMO, the upgrade to address this issue would be to replace the vacuum-operated actuator with a pull-cable actuator. |
Yes I have trouble locking mine too, but would a cable would solve it? Yes it's a PITA to diagnose. Need a solid plan of attack, and you can't diagnose it in the mud. On my Peloquin diff, on the bench, the mechanism itself moves smooth and precision.
It seems like the reasons may be:
1) the Peloquin has already 'locked' on it's own, thus not allowing the multiple (one after the other) engagement windows that an open diff offers.
2) It takes effort to free-spin the axles to offer the "engagement points" which are at exactly 90 degrees (+/- 0.1 degree).
This thing locks like a bank vault. It seems to me that the engagement feature could be more 'loosey-goosey' rather than a precision lock. Where you remove four of the six dogs, allowing something like 120 degrees of backlash, give a large lock window? Even with slop the TBD is still working, won't it damp that backlash anyway?
It simply has to lock for a short period, it doesn't need to endure 20,000 actuations over the next 100,000 miles. PLUS the simple fact you almost NEVER need to lock it, you can probably count on one hand the times the TBD didn't take care of your traction problem. And then, since you're not up on the flat preparing, you've already driven into the mess, you can't get it locked anyway. Maybe even count on your balls  . Of course I can't even begin to redesign such a thing but hey this is a forum we're just typing!
My camper will never see race-car conditions (wheels spinning at the top of the 350hp powerband, coming down on a rock.....blah blah blah). Its "lock carefully", get thru the sh*t, unlock. And for that I need a "wide" locking window far more than race-car reliability. Was thinking even 45degree points on the dogs to ease the locking process, but that could bend the actuating rod....so no on that.
Man that Peloquin is one beautiful piece of equipment (IMHO) it probably should be listed in the "Luxury Tools" thread!
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
| gears wrote: |
To clarify: Gary Peloquin's TBD for Vanagon comes in two versions .. One of those versions is a "Syncro" version, which retains the FULL-locking feature of the original Syncro locking differential.
One complaint of the Syncro version Peloquin is that it doesn't fully lock as easily as the OE Syncro diff .. as though the engagement lugs resist lining up. IMO, the upgrade to address this issue would be to replace the vacuum-operated actuator with a pull-cable actuator. |
If the vacuum actuator had more pulling strength, would that solve the issue?
I'd like to have one of these Peloquin limited slip diffs in my syncro, but I'd also like to retain the factory locker |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
Maybe more pulling power could help. Look at the pic above, the locker dogs have to be perfectly aligned for it to lock, and this is hard to do sometimes, especially if you are at the edge of a precipice and have no place to horse around trying to get alignment. Next thing you know you are spinning a wheel and THEN it's possible to get alignment, but remember .... now you're stopped in a hole and you really NEED a LOCK. (sorry that's more of a problem for the non-TBD locker....which may actually lock easier than the Peloquin. Details details.)
The other thing about the locker-Peloquin is......
You almost NEVER need the LOCKING feature. Consequently you have not used it, nor limbered it up, in YEARS. So when it comes down to that moment of truth, is the actuator going to WORK? Will it be gummed up? You need to give it a gnat's eyeball alignment first THEN wait for the next step - which is - CAN the actuator actually do it?
Man I think for Syncros it needs to be more "easy-locking" and less "race-car". I'd like to have Peloquin cut 4 of those dogs offa mine.
The thing about the Peloquin is.... and this is after having one for 6 years.....it works so darn good, the LOCKER part gets down to being "a light on the dash". You don't need it. So many times I've had the wheel spin and I just touch the footbrake and it drives on out. I'm thinking "HEY I shoulda locked up!". But it's too late I touched the brake and the van went thru already. Next time I'll try the locker.
And remember that the locker is "barely" user-selectable. You have to create specific conditions amenable to locking, then you must re-create conditions amenable to unlocking. All the while you are hoping vacuum can perform this function.
Contrast this to being able to control the locking and unlocking the Peloquin TBD with your footbrake. You can instantly lock, unlock, re-apply at driver-discretion is what the regular Peloquin TBD is doing automatically, all the time. You can (often) unlock instantly at the moment your front wheels start to push. Can['t do that when its LOCKED.
If I had to do it again (the purchase) I would NOT buy another locker-feature. And CERTAINLY its not worth the effort to ADD all the locking to a non-locker tranny case. But I have to say that little green LED on the dash is compelling.... and it's what every one expects or wants.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
The likely cure wouldn't be to remove any dogs on the Peloquin, but rather it would be to narrow all dogs on the engaging collar by a mm or 2.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
| gears wrote: |
| The likely cure wouldn't be to remove any dogs on the Peloquin, but rather it would be to narrow all dogs on the engaging collar by a mm or 2. |
That sounds like a good idea.
I wonder how well a low-friction coating would hold up in there...
Like this http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
| tjet wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| The likely cure wouldn't be to remove any dogs on the Peloquin, but rather it would be to narrow all dogs on the engaging collar by a mm or 2. |
That sounds like a good idea.
I wonder how well a low-friction coating would hold up in there... |
Any low friction coating would hold up fine because there's zero movement.
The problem isn't friction, the problem is it requires precise alignment to engage. I can't imagine why this precision is necessary. What would it hurt to have a quarter turn of clearance in which to engage and disengage? The TBD is still working in that 1/4 turn, it's not just free & sloppy backlash.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
CLARIFICATION of locking dogs on Peloquin differential. There is about 5mm clearance allowed for locking. It sure seems like there could be a LOT more than 5mm though, for a 4WD camper,,,,, Like 30mm. Besides the spider/worms/mechanism will damp some of the backlash.
| Sodo wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| One complaint of the Syncro version Peloquin is that it doesn't fully lock as easily as the OE Syncro diff .. as though the engagement lugs resist lining up. IMO, the upgrade to address this issue would be to replace the vacuum-operated actuator with a pull-cable actuator. |
|
 This proposal is "WRONG". Those (with the yellow Xs) are NOT the locking dogs. The diff is actually UNLOCKED in the pic above.
The disengagement happens farther inside. There is appx 3/16" (5mm) of clearance to allow alignment of the dogs.
I think MORE clearance would be better though.... If these diffs are ised for race cars then THEY should ask for heavy-duty units, and there should be a regular, easy-locking unit with narrower dogs (for those driving collector-vehicles).
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
A machine shop (or Peloquin) could double the locking 'window' by narrowing the engagement dogs a little.
I don't know if my Peloquin has difficulty locking because "the window is too small" or if my other system components are at fault. This Peloquin was installed feb 2009. Maybe newer units have been 'loosened up'. I do prefer it to lock with no messin' around. Ya know you just want that light to come on, it means all systems are GO. I'm unlikely to actually use the lock because just a touch on the footbrake locks it automatically. And then getting off the brake it unlocks (automatic again). But I bought the darn thing and a guy with a dash light.....well...you know.
But if I was in a situation .... and you know what I mean by situation ..... spectators observing my dash lights.... I'd prefer the vacuum locker to set the locking collar without too much horsing around.
Incidentally this Peloquin diff has only 27,000 miles, but has been thru two transmission failures since (two episodes of horrible abrasive soup). I sent it back to Peloquin for cleaning and he proclaimed it to be in PERFECT condition, not a bit of wear anywhere. He said it is one of his early 094 lockers.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joetiger
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 5078
Location: denver
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
Maybe more pulling power could help. Look at the pic above, the locker dogs have to be perfectly aligned for it to lock, and this is hard to do sometimes, especially if you are at the edge of a precipice and have no place to horse around trying to get alignment. Next thing you know you are spinning a wheel and THEN it's possible to get alignment, but remember .... now you're stopped in a hole and you really NEED a LOCK. (sorry that's more of a problem for the non-TBD locker....which may actually lock easier than the Peloquin. Details details.)
The other thing about the locker-Peloquin is......
You almost NEVER need the LOCKING feature. Consequently you have not used it, nor limbered it up, in YEARS. So when it comes down to that moment of truth, is the actuator going to WORK? Will it be gummed up? You need to give it a gnat's eyeball alignment first THEN wait for the next step - which is - CAN the actuator actually do it?
Man I think for Syncros it needs to be more "easy-locking" and less "race-car". I'd like to have Peloquin cut 4 of those dogs offa mine.
The thing about the Peloquin is.... and this is after having one for 6 years.....it works so darn good, the LOCKER part gets down to being "a light on the dash". You don't need it. So many times I've had the wheel spin and I just touch the footbrake and it drives on out. I'm thinking "HEY I shoulda locked up!". But it's too late I touched the brake and the van went thru already. Next time I'll try the locker.
And remember that the locker is "barely" user-selectable. You have to create specific conditions amenable to locking, then you must re-create conditions amenable to unlocking. All the while you are hoping vacuum can perform this function.
Contrast this to being able to control the locking and unlocking the Peloquin TBD with your footbrake. You can instantly lock, unlock, re-apply at driver-discretion is what the regular Peloquin TBD is doing automatically, all the time. You can (often) unlock instantly at the moment your front wheels start to push. Can['t do that when its LOCKED.
If I had to do it again (the purchase) I would NOT buy another locker-feature. And CERTAINLY its not worth the effort to ADD all the locking to a non-locker tranny case. But I have to say that little green LED on the dash is compelling.... and it's what every one expects or wants. |
I'm in the throes of deciding whether locker is necessary or not.
I've been giving a lot of thought to what the actual purpose of this Syncro will be going forward, and if it's our primary camper van that will see snow, fire roads, and NOT much hard stuff in Moab (if any) I'm wondering if it's worth it to add the locker to my non-locker trans or to just go with the Peloquin. Is it really as simple as a touch on the footbrake to get it to engage?
If I don't add a locker, then I'll have more to add to the budget for other areas of the van that need upgrading.
(Of course this could also be a case of finding a thread to support my developing narrative of not adding a locker.  )
Thanks for any insight!
_________________
Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro trans....locker, peloquin or BOTH? |
|
|
>>> I'm wondering if it's worth it to add the locker to my non-locker trans or to just go with the Peloquin<<<
Adding the VW vacuum locker will cost $$$$. Less if you’re lucky and have special sources of rare parts.
You could buy the vacuum-locker-version Peloquin and then you’d be ready with the right diff in case you won the lottery and located the thousands-of-dollars of VW parts. Or if you find a locker trans. A trashed locker trans would have many of the parts you need, and if the case is good, even better.
I’ve realized now that all of my Peloquin experience has been with horrible amounts of metal trash in my (previous) grenading transaxles. Its possible that the metal caused my Peloquin to be more aggressive (eager to lock). Which it was.
My current trans doesn’t have a Peloquin (but has the VW vacuum locker).
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
