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Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle
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kourt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Howdy all,

Welcome to page 11! When I started this thread 3 1/2 years ago I had no idea it would grow like this.

I've been traveling and just catching up on this thread.

Gruppe B--thank you for posting and I look forward to your followup photos.

vwhammer--as danfromsyr says, the Audi 5000 turbo upgrade does not change the gear ratios. The only way to change gearing in an automatic is to change the ring and pinion, which will change the entire transaxle gearing, not single transmission gears.

Alika--thanks for posting the links to those hard to find parts, and thanks for developing them.

Love our automatics!

kourt
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Not trying to argue but this is not true.
The gearing in an auto trans comes from the planetary set.
it changes gearing by stopping certain parts of that planetary gear set while letting others move.
This is what all the clutch packs and bands and baskets do.
All the ring and pinion changes is the speed of the output flanges at a given RPM.
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Butcher
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

I would recommend people to see for themselves if the gear ratio is different or not. As far as I know, the 4 planetary gearset [Audi/Porsche] has 2.55/1.44/1.0 and the 3 planetary gearset [VW] have 2.71/1.5/1.0.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/1980-audi-5000-turbo1980-audi-5000-turbo-specs-aug-1980.pdf
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Of course I am shooting for 180-200hp and will likely not do that much technical off roading anyway so I think I might prefer a stronger trans over an only slightly better first gear ratio.
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kourt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Howdy,

Here's some numbers.

Audi 5000 turbo automatic through 1983:

1st: 2.55
2nd: 1.44
3rd: 1.00

Audi 5000 turbo automatic from 1984:

1st: 2.71
2nd: 1.5
3rd: 1.00

Vanagon 090 automatic (edited later to reflect correct information):

1st: 2.71 (late), 2.55 (early)
2nd: 1.5 (late), 1.44 (early)
3rd: 1.00

Yes, if you find an earlier (1980) Audi 5000 automatic, the gear ratios would be different. Thank you for this insight.

It looks like the ratios for the later turbo automatic and the Vanagon are the same. There's a lot of information out there on this subject, thankfully.

kourt


Last edited by kourt on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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OddN
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

kourt wrote:
Howdy,

Here's some numbers.

Audi 5000 turbo automatic through 1983:

1st: 2.55
2nd: 1.44
3rd: 1.00

Audi 5000 turbo automatic from 1984:

1st: 2.71
2nd: 1.5
3rd: 1.00

Vanagon 090 automatic:

1st: 2.71
2nd: 1.5
3rd: 1.00

Yes, if you find an earlier (1980) Audi 5000 automatic, the gear ratios would be different. Thank you for this insight.

It looks like the ratios for the later turbo automatic and the Vanagon are the same. There's a lot of information out there on this subject, thankfully.

kourt


If Im not mistaken the early Vanagon (maybe only the aircooled ones) havet the same ratio as the early Audi.
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Yes this makes sense as the vanagon up to 83 also had the 2.55 1st gear and after switched to 2.71.

Well good now that's settled.
Time to start finding parts.
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vwhammer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

So do I have to do something special to buy from Makcotransmissionparts.com
I have tried to get the parts that have been mention but it just says "No payment methods are available for your basket. This may be due to a network or configuration error, or the contents of your basket may not be eligible for any of the configured payment methods."

Whats weird is that I have tried it with several other places that have the same kit at the same price and I get the same error when I try to check out.

Anyway I found another place (cobratransmission.com) that had a kit for slightly more money that said it also came with some differential components so I just bought that.
https://cobratransmission.com/master-kit-volkswagen-090-1975-up-2001016-1
We will see if it is even close to what I need.
Fingers crossed.

Now to spec out and source all of my trans cooler/filter components.
Then it is a call to German transaxle to see if they have and will sell me the Audi ring gear hub and maybe some of the shims that have been mentioned.
Probably have my trans out next week but I am rebuilding everything on this van so who know when I will actually get around to the upgrade/refurb.

I will try to document everything as much as possible with as many updated part sources as possible.

I also still have to source a good Audi trans so it might be a minute.
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Gruppe B
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:

Then it is a call to German transaxle to see if they have and will sell me the Audi ring gear hub and maybe some of the shims that have been mentioned.

I will try to document everything as much as possible with as many updated part sources as possible.

I also still have to source a good Audi trans so it might be a minute.


Don't buy the ring gear hub if using the 1984+ Audi 5000T transmission as you won't need it. The Vanagon Hub will fit fine

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

1984 Audi 5000T Reverse Planetary Ring Gear with Vanagon Ring Gear Hub

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

1984 Audi 5000T and 1991 Vanagon Reverse Planetary Ring Gears stacked on top of each other (same gear tooth spacing)
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Gruppe B
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:
So do I have to do something special to buy from Makcotransmissionparts.com
I have tried to get the parts that have been mention but it just says "No payment methods are available for your basket. This may be due to a network or configuration error, or the contents of your basket may not be eligible for any of the configured payment methods."

Whats weird is that I have tried it with several other places that have the same kit at the same price and I get the same error when I try to check out.

Anyway I found another place (cobratransmission.com) that had a kit for slightly more money that said it also came with some differential components so I just bought that.
https://cobratransmission.com/master-kit-volkswagen-090-1975-up-2001016-1
We will see if it is even close to what I need.
Fingers crossed.


None of the Vanagon frictions and steels will work with the later Audi 5000T 80+ direct drum as they are larger. I reused the 5000T frictions as I didn't order them. See my post on page 10. These frictions and steels are still available so make sure to order them.
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Gruppe B
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gruppe B wrote:


You will also have to use the Audi 5000T 2nd gear brake band piston as the rod that goes to the brake band is shorter to compensate for the larger direct drum.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Vanagon brake band piston on left 1984 Audi 5000T on right


Brake band pushrod is also smaller on the 5000T. You will need to use this 5000T part as well....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The brake band itself is no different between the Audi and the Vanagon, however German Transaxle does sell a heavy duty kevlar version of the brake band that they use in their 5000T upgrade transmission.
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Hey folks - appreciate the additions to this thread.

Looking for opinions - would you replace your torque converter while going down this path? Before my transmission stopped working I did have some low speed shutter which, based on my research, is typically traced back to the torque converter. I know I need to replace the seals in it, but I'm questioning whether or not the entire unit should be replaced.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Hmmm yes this is a good question. My van... and I assume the trans has 230,000 miles on it.
The trans still seemed to shift fine and I did not notice anything strange so I may just leave it.
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Gruppe B
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

h00drat wrote:
Hey folks - appreciate the additions to this thread.

Looking for opinions - would you replace your torque converter while going down this path? Before my transmission stopped working I did have some low speed shutter which, based on my research, is typically traced back to the torque converter. I know I need to replace the seals in it, but I'm questioning whether or not the entire unit should be replaced.


Definitely replace the torque converter. It captures all the crud that is impossible for you to get out. When you know you installed a new one, you don't have to second guess if it is any good.

I order mine from Precision of NewHampton, IIRC it was only $200 +$100 core. You only have 5 or 6 days however to post back the core so be careful...

They supply almost everybody
http://www.gopnh.com/
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Gruppe B wrote:
h00drat wrote:
Hey folks - appreciate the additions to this thread.

Looking for opinions - would you replace your torque converter while going down this path? Before my transmission stopped working I did have some low speed shutter which, based on my research, is typically traced back to the torque converter. I know I need to replace the seals in it, but I'm questioning whether or not the entire unit should be replaced.


Definitely replace the torque converter. It captures all the crud that is impossible for you to get out. When you know you installed a new one, you don't have to second guess if it is any good.

I order mine from Precision of NewHampton, IIRC it was only $200 +$100 core. You only have 5 or 6 days however to post back the core so be careful...

They supply almost everybody
http://www.gopnh.com/


Good call, and thanks for the tip. My gut was telling me to replace it.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

What are the symptoms of a bad torque converter besides blades that come loose and make noise?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

I don't know about this....

ALIKA T3 wrote:
... blades that come loose and make noise?


But as I mentioned, I was having low speed shudders which a quick Google search pointed straight to bad torque converter. Accelerating from a stop, van feels like it's running over a bunch of tiny speed bumps.
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kublerwagen
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

I’m afraid I no longer believe that any part is good simply because it is new. But I haven’t heard of crappy torque converters in particular.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

The biggest issue with an old torque converter is the stator. The clutch/bearing can wear out. Anything with 200k is worn out in my book and is not a bad idea to replace/repair it while you are in there. I certainly would have the torque converter rebuilt if I had the transmission out.

There are small converter rebuild shops around. I would check locally first. Call the local transmission rebuilding shop and see where they bring theirs. It's easier to deal with if you have an issue in the future than someone on the internet.

https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/diagnose-one-way-stator-clutch.html
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle Reply with quote

Assuming it was never rebuilt before, my transmission / torque converter have about 260k miles on them. So by all accounts, due for a rebuilt.
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