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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1045 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:50 pm Post subject: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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I am greener than a seasick coed with vertigo when it comes to metal working. I have a 1970 Ghia convertible I am restoring and have begun to do the metal repairs that are needed. I have surfed many car restoration forums and watched many hours of YouTube in an effort to educate myself on how to perform metal repairs. I have no prior experience but for the most part I understand the information I have come across. The picture below shows the repair that has me completely sideways. The car was hit in the right-rear quarter and the area shown in the picture is the least damaged part. it was a large dent covered in about 1/2" of filler. What you see is bare metal treated with phosphoric acid metal prep (dark areas) and sanded metal. The light area comprises a warp/wave in the panel with two peaks surrounded by low spots. I have tried hammering off dolly to raise the low spots, heat shrinking with a torch (which introduced the wave,) and hammering on dolly in an attempt to smooth out some of the rougher spots. It is rather difficult to get a dolly behind the some of the damage due to the wheel house.
- is the metal in the low spots also stretched? (I assume the high spots are stretched)
- Short of making relief cuts in the high spots and reshaping the metal, what are my options?
I realize I am asking for a lot with just a picture go on but any help or guidance is appreciated.
Thanks,
Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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For the low spots, use the hammer and dolly to stretch these so they come out. For a stretch you want the shape of the dolly more curved than the shape you are trying to achieve with the low point touching so the dolly brings it up. Use the hammer to lightly tap to locate the dolly to ensure you are only hitting on the dolly right where the low point is.
For the high spots, do multiple hot shrinks as necessary to shrink them down. If you are getting warping from trying to do hot shrinking you are heating up the general area too much - you need to do a single point cherry red and hammer and dolly it down then quench with a wet rag. For a shrink you want the shape of the dolly to be flatter than behind where you are shrinking so there is a gap to shrink into.
Assuming the other side is ok, make up a profile template from cardboard and use this to make sure you are getting the profile right as you go.
Whatever you do, don’t make relief cuts because this will just cause more distortion when you weld them up.
You should be able to access most of this from inside but down toward the wheel arch you won’t get the dolly inside. For these areas you would need to use a stud weld dent puller tool. _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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You can actually use heat to stretch metal. Heat it up but don't hammer it down. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1045 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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Please pardon my ignorance and additional questions. My goal is to work the metal as well as I can and use the minimum amount of filler. This is born from the interest of learning a new skill rather than a purist perspective.
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
For the low spots, use the hammer and dolly to stretch these so they come out. For a stretch you want the shape of the dolly more curved than the shape you are trying to achieve with the low point touching so the dolly brings it up. Use the hammer to lightly tap to locate the dolly to ensure you are only hitting on the dolly right where the low point is. |
Should I use a hammer or a spoon for this task? If I understand correctly, you are saying to work the low spot only at the lowest point. Should I relocate the dolly around the entire low spot and work it out in increments or keep the dolly in the center and work it until it is raised? Should I hit the low spot on-dolly at the point of dolly contact or the area surrounding the point of contact? I Interpret you statement to mean that low spots are shrunken and need to be stretched back out.
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
For the high spots, do multiple hot shrinks as necessary to shrink them down. If you are getting warping from trying to do hot shrinking you are heating up the general area too much... |
I believe this is where I went wrong. I heated a large area, but not to cherry red, then quenched it with a wet rag. I believe I hardened the metal by doing this repeatedly. Is the metal hardening reversible?
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
...you need to do a single point cherry red and hammer and dolly it down then quench with a wet rag. For a shrink you want the shape of the dolly to be flatter than behind where you are shrinking so there is a gap to shrink into. |
Should I hammer only on the heated spot or the surrounding area as well? Should the hammer taps be flat or glancing towards the center of the heated area? None of the videos I have watched have been very clear on how exactly ho work the metal.
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
Assuming the other side is ok, make up a profile template from cardboard and use this to make sure you are getting the profile right as you go. |
I thought of doing that. Thanks for the confirmation.
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
Whatever you do, don’t make relief cuts because this will just cause more distortion when you weld them up. |
Thank you for saving me from myself.
Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
You should be able to access most of this from inside but down toward the wheel arch you won’t get the dolly inside. For these areas you would need to use a stud weld dent puller tool. |
Yup, I already bought one. It has worked out quite well in several areas but I am having trouble pulling out the low spot adjacent to the rust damage on the wheel arch. Any suggestions on stud welder technique in this area? I also have extensive damage at the lower-rear corner of the same quarter. I was able to pull out a crease with the dent puller but that area will need a lot more love. I'll post back with questions when I get back to that area.
theKbStockpiler wrote: |
You can actually use heat to stretch metal. Heat it up but don't hammer it down. |
Thanks for you input. I have been trying different approaches to heat shrinking. I have moved away from quenching with a wet rag due to hardening and hydrogen embrittlement. I have been heating, hammering, then cooling with my leaf blower. When heat stretching, should I cool it at all or let it cool naturally?
Thanks again,
Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Should I use a hammer or a spoon for this task? |
I was taught to use a "slapper" rather than a hammer- I am not sure if this is Australian slang for a tool (it sounds like it) but it is kind of like a bent file. I used a body spoon instead of the dolly where necessary to access down between the outer panel and the inner wheel well.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Should I relocate the dolly around the entire low spot and work it out in increments or keep the dolly in the center and work it until it is raised? |
For a small low like a hail dent you just want to have the high point on the dolly touching the low point on the panel to concentrate the force where the metal needs to be stretched. But if the low point is a larger area you will need to do this in multiple locations.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Should I hit the low spot on-dolly at the point of dolly contact or the area surrounding the point of contact? I Interpret you statement to mean that low spots are shrunken and need to be stretched back out. |
Just hit on the dolly where the low is, you don't want to stretch the area around the low because then you will end up with a high point around a low point.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
I believe this is where I went wrong. I heated a large area, but not to cherry red, then quenched it with a wet rag. I believe I hardened the metal by doing this repeatedly. Is the metal hardening reversible? |
I think to harden metal you need to get it cherry red then fully quench so I am not sure whether you would have handened it. A heat shrink should be a very small area which will cool as you are doing the shrink and you then just wipe over it with a moist rag to take the rest of the heat out to.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Should I hammer only on the heated spot or the surrounding area as well? Should the hammer taps be flat or glancing towards the center of the heated area? None of the videos I have watched have been very clear on how exactly ho work the metal. |
The hot spot should which only about 1/4" to 1/2" in size so you want to hammer straight down on the hot spot. For a larger high you need to do multiple small hot shrinks - don't try and heat up the whole area at once.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
It has worked out quite well in several areas but I am having trouble pulling out the low spot adjacent to the rust damage on the wheel arch. Any suggestions on stud welder technique in this area? |
You probably need to weld a patch piece in before you try and panel beat around this area because the hole will allow the panel to just move rather than shrinking and stretching like you want. _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1045 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Metal Shaping/Repair - Help needed |
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@Mellow Yellow 74
Thanks again for the advise and guidance. It proved very helpful and productive.
This excerpt from my build thread shows where I am at now in the process. I am posting it here as well to prevent this thread from becoming one with no feedback or closure.
Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Now for the good news:
I managed to make significant progress yesterday. I took the advice Mellow Yellow 74 provided, and the suggestion from TDCTDI to look into shrinking disks and did some more research. I found the following:
- The shrinking disk is ideal for removing ripples
- A stud welder with a shrinking tip can be very effective
- A high crown dolly works well for raising low spots (contrary to what most info on the net will tell you)
What I did
- I used the high crown dolly ($30:00 Harbor Freight body hammer set) behind the low spots and was able to raise them significantly. I only have body hammers but since the damage is close to the wheel opening I was able to use a flat file as a slapper. I placed the dolly on the peak of the low spot (when viewed from the backside of the panel,) with the radius arc vertically, and slapped the low spot with the file oriented vertically while working the it laterally across the face of the dolly and the width of the indentation. I used medium force blows from the file to minimize the risk of going too far. Since the low spots ran vertically about six inches I relocated the dolly along the indentation and repeated the steps above. This got the low spots up about 90%
- Since I only have a MAP gas torch, and it caused the broad area heating that got me in trouble in the first place, I gave the stud welder a try. I don’t believe a shrinking tip is available that fits the Harbor Freight stud welder so I may have to make one using a copper button head screw. I took a chance and simply used the stud welder as is. I lined up the copper stud tip with the crown on the high spots, held the body hammer in my trigger hand, gave the welder a ~1 Sec. burst, and quickly gave the hot spot several light, flat taps. After repeating this process MANY. MANY time, the high spots shrank by about 90% as well. I tried the torch once more, getting a dime sized spot cherry red, but got bad results and had to fix them with the stud welder again.
- The panel was now much flatter but had three low ripples and a large distortion which I could not easily identify. In a moment of clarity I took a peek at the panel from the inside. Running my hand along the inside of the panel I realized the distortion was a low spot which ran horizontally from the ripples towards the front of the car. I then used the high crown dolly process to get the panel back to an “almost correct” profile. The next step is to repair the rust damage at the wheel arch and then either make or buy a shrinking disk to address the ripples.
As Onceler stated above, it a “you need to do it to understand it” kind of thing.
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Emil |
_________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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