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westina
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Hi. Some of you may recall my recon moves about painting my 84 westfalia and i have been knee deep with paints, reducers...I was asked to report back about my progress and i have to admit Its not going very vell.
Materials i am using is fine, its a base coat clear coat work and i am almost sure that my paint system is a total failure. I thought i would get decent result with that TITAN TS50 HVLP sprayer but it is not happening. Used 1 gallon base, which was a 1:1 reducer which means i have shooted about 2 gallons of color???
[img] I am learning therefore i cant make very accurate observations but what i am shooting is nowhere near what i see at the youtube videos. There is no mist, material comes out in a narrow pattern and when you try to adjust it, chunks, extreme orange peel, you name it. End result is, when you stand at the corner of the vehicle and look along the side panels, i can see my passes. In narrow parts such as door jamb, tail gate its not noticable but long panels on both side, pass and driver door and sliding door it is visible to the naked eye. I have talked to the guy at the supply store and he said it would look 10 times worst if i put clear over it as it is because clear coat magnifies.
[/img] I haven't try to shoot clear yet but i wouldn't surprise if it comes out not good too.
I am open to ideas of corrections. i really wanted to use what i have on my hand and not get a compressor since i have no use for it except this paint project but if it comes down to doing it right, i would look into it.
I tried to wet sand 800 grit, which knocked down the imperfections and resulted with a smooth surface but didn't do anything to the shades of horizontal passes. Also, 800 grit shows fine scratchmarks as well. I mas need to shoot more base on that area and if i need to wet sand, go up maybe 1500grit.
If i get a compressor and more paint i will have to sand with 400 grit to create mechanical bond, since there will be no chemical bond(maximum 24 hours)
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westina
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

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westina
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/paint/20-o...68843.html

my gun
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fxr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

????

HTF do you use that *without* a compressor?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

I used a similar setup...
once....
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weswsimpson
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Hello,

I've used an HVLP Turbine paint sprayer--similar to what I think you are using to do interior kitchen cabinets and trim work. I believe that have different size tips, so that would be one thing to check out, the other thing is that the finish is very dependent on the viscosity of the paint, too think and it won't work, too thin and it runs. (thicker paint requires bigger/more turbines). The primer and finish coats, shot from the same sprayer with the same tip looked completely different when I applied them, the primer went on smooth, the finish coat was lumpy and full of orange peal. Fortunately, the finish coat dried smooth--but I was sick to my stomach until it had dried! These were interior house paints--I have no idea how automotive paints will respond.

My suggestion is that you're going to have to do some test panels. Go to the junk yard, get a couple hoods, sand and prep them and do your samples, try to reproduce the conditions that you'll face when you do the real job. I think you are going to have to wet sand and respray regardless.

Another option is Maaco--they are pretty cheap if you do all the prep, and since they do it all day long, they have their paints and sprayer dialed in....
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nemobuscaptain
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

fxr wrote:
????

HTF do you use that *without* a compressor?

Agreed. Feel like I'm missing something. The webpage says the gun needs at least 15 psi. No way that turbine is even close to that.

Or perhaps just buying the whole HF turbine kit. There is a thread somewhere, maybe in bay window bus, about painting with a harbor freight turbine. It discusses some other things like high air temps caused by the turbine and needing to thin the paint because of that.
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Last edited by nemobuscaptain on Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alaskadan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Your titan ts50 looks very similar to our fuji hvlp setup that we spray cabinetry with. Built in compressor and all. Our system supplies heated air to the gun to a degree. This might not help you with automotive paints. You should get one of those viscosity test cups and check your paint. Then get the appropriate tip. We definitely use a different tip for clear finishes vs spraying latex on cabinets. The narrow pattern might be something else, clean all passages in the gun really well. Does your gun have a small clear tube from the top of the pot to the gun with a check valve in the middle? Is it installed in the right direction?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

I use conventional spray guns using high pressure compressed air and also an older Sherwin Williams CapSpray 9100 turbine paint setup.

(Link to newer but similar item https://www.lowes.com/pd/TITAN-Capspray-115-Statio...gKeY_D_BwE )

I get good results with either. Which I use depends upon the project.
Using either setup, It all comes down to adjustments.
Air Pressure
Air Volume
Paint volume
Spray pattern
Nozzle selection
Viscosity


Now add a little bit of skill which consists of timing, speed, overlap, etc.

Show us your compressor. You cannot spray well with an anemic air compressor for you will always be running out of air and waiting for the compressor to catch up.

Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

You are trying to do brain surgery with a chainsaw, but one gooddifference is the patient survives with no ill effects.
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Bulli Klinik
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

westina wrote:
Hi. Some of you may recall my recon moves about painting my 84 westfalia and i have been knee deep with paints, reducers...I was asked to report back about my progress and i have to admit Its not going very vell.
Materials i am using is fine, its a base coat clear coat work and i am almost sure that my paint system is a total failure. I thought i would get decent result with that TITAN TS50 HVLP sprayer but it is not happening. Used 1 gallon base, which was a 1:1 reducer which means i have shooted about 2 gallons of color???
[img] I am learning therefore i cant make very accurate observations but what i am shooting is nowhere near what i see at the youtube videos. There is no mist, material comes out in a narrow pattern and when you try to adjust it, chunks, extreme orange peel, you name it. End result is, when you stand at the corner of the vehicle and look along the side panels, i can see my passes. In narrow parts such as door jamb, tail gate its not noticable but long panels on both side, pass and driver door and sliding door it is visible to the naked eye. I have talked to the guy at the supply store and he said it would look 10 times worst if i put clear over it as it is because clear coat magnifies.
[/img] I haven't try to shoot clear yet but i wouldn't surprise if it comes out not good too.
I am open to ideas of corrections. i really wanted to use what i have on my hand and not get a compressor since i have no use for it except this paint project but if it comes down to doing it right, i would look into it.
I tried to wet sand 800 grit, which knocked down the imperfections and resulted with a smooth surface but didn't do anything to the shades of horizontal passes. Also, 800 grit shows fine scratchmarks as well. I mas need to shoot more base on that area and if i need to wet sand, go up maybe 1500grit.
If i get a compressor and more paint i will have to sand with 400 grit to create mechanical bond, since there will be no chemical bond(maximum 24 hours)


If you truly mixed your paint with reducer instead of the catalyst/activator, that is part of your problem.

Your scratch mark issues will not be cleared up in the painting stages. Prior to laying down your finish coats you should be shooting a thinned down epoxy primer as a sealer coat. Pro shops with a booth will shoot the finish coat immediately after the sealer. As you are shooting at home, there is a greater chance of dust getting into the paint. Let the sealer dry completely, wet sand between 400-600 grit to ensure that there are no sanding marks or dust, then shoot the color. The scratching comes from heavier grits used earlier on. 800-1500 should really only be used for color sanding. One last thing, always use fresh paper. It actually cuts off the top of the surface where dull paper does not.

I'm not familiar with you equipment, but setup should be similar to all guns. From what I see, it appears that you are getting a lot of dry spray and you are not overlapping as well as you should. Adjust your gun for a wide spray pattern and overlap 50% with each pass. This is a good tutorial on gun set up: [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDk-pJWrJ0[/youtube]

Lastly, don't freak out. Everything you've done so far can be taken care of prior to clear. If you need to shoot another wet coat of primer to cover scratches and block it again, so be it. Slow, patient and especially methodical are keys to good paint.

Good luck!
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stevey88
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Most likely the compressor is too small. For the gun OP use ( 15 CFM @ 40psi), it will need a 5HP compressor. A 2HP compressor typically can drive a gun that needs 6CFM like this cheap HP gun:

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/paint/20-oz-8-cfm-gravity-feed-spray-gun-67181.html
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westina
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Sorry i couldn't post the pic of the sprayer, i get the "file too large" msg. Anyway this is exactly what i have, except i have swapped the gun with the one shown at the earlier link.
http://www.pawnplex.com/tools/ts50/index.htm
some info FROM WEBQUOTE: This 4 stage turbine system offers higher performance for the most demanding spray finishing applications.
It delivers 8 psi and 82 cfm to achieve the highest level atomization and production.

FEATURES
4 stage turbine - 8 psi at 82 cfm
20' (6 m) high quality air hose with quick disconnect fitting
Weight: 28 lbs. (12.7 kg)

Now it appears to me that our issue is not having enough PSI. Even if i get the purple gun from HF, it is listed for 20-70 working pressure. Since my turbine blows 8psi i am not sure if it would work. I have scanned the craigslist and i can get a 30gallon 5hp for reasonable price. It appears that 60 gallon is the preferred size but it's size, weight etc. I simply can't. Noise probably would be too much for my place as well.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Get the correct gun for the system, it will work great!

There are HVLP guns for high pressure systems and HVLP guns for a proper HVLP system.

My CapSpray system can lay down some nice paint with minimum overspray.

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-0524041-524041-Capspray-Maxum/dp/B00AWF6VJC

BTW..... as a beginner I'd go with a single stage paint system.

Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

I am not a professional body guy but the gun you bought needs a compressor that can give you 40psi at the gun. What you have used is a " fan " that can blow 82cfm at 8psi. I painted my Westy using a Devilbiss gfg670 ( bought used on ebay ) and a Sears 2HP compressor. I mounted a pressure gauge at the gun and adjust the pressure when the trigger is pressed, to 30psi. The result is very acceptable.
In your case, you have to use the gun that came with the fan or find a suitable compressor.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Just to clarify.... there's more then one style of HVLP guns, the one the OP is using is a Turbine System--basically a fan that blows a lot of air through a garden hose at low pressure. What a Body Shop uses is also an HVLP gun, but it's connected to a narrow line and a compressor--two different setups that are not interchangeable.
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westina
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Get the correct gun for the system, it will work great!

There are HVLP guns for high pressure systems and HVLP guns for a proper HVLP system.

My CapSpray system can lay down some nice paint with minimum overspray.

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-0524041-524041-Capspray-Maxum/dp/B00AWF6VJC

BTW..... as a beginner I'd go with a single stage paint system.

Dave

I am very deep into the project, bought all the supply, clear coat etc. Honestly, i am confident that i can get done decent paint work, but i have screw up picking the right tool part. I have the original gun that came with the unit but there is no needle set available since its an older model and the tip on the gun is .051 and the air cap is number 1. According to the information, which can be also viewed at the link i have posted(5th pic from top to bottom) tis tip is suitable for finish grade latex, full bodied stains, alkalyd and waterborne enamels. .043 needle seems to be a better match for my job but i don't have it. Should i still give it a try? I was thinking that i need a wider fan pattern and more like a mist shooting out of the spray gun and best application at this point would be a compressor. There are few compressors locally available looks clean priced 150-200 $ range.
Its getting colder, days are shorter, i need to come up with a plan. Would that be better if i get a compressor, 30gallon and not to invest more on that turbine thing? Spraying clear coat with turbine compared to compressor set up started to worry me as well.
Another idea is getting that cheap purple HF gun and try. It uses half the PSI of my current gun. Only 13$, so no big deal.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

I do really like the HVLP turbine system.
It can really put down a nice layer of paint with a minimum of overspray.

I would experiment and see what you can find that works for you.
You do need a fine atomized mist, the proper viscousity and proper application technique and speed, something only learned by doing.

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

westina wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Get the correct gun for the system, it will work great!

There are HVLP guns for high pressure systems and HVLP guns for a proper HVLP system.

My CapSpray system can lay down some nice paint with minimum overspray.

https://www.amazon.com/Titan-0524041-524041-Capspray-Maxum/dp/B00AWF6VJC

BTW..... as a beginner I'd go with a single stage paint system.

Dave

I am very deep into the project, bought all the supply, clear coat etc. Honestly, i am confident that i can get done decent paint work, but i have screw up picking the right tool part. I have the original gun that came with the unit but there is no needle set available since its an older model and the tip on the gun is .051 and the air cap is number 1. According to the information, which can be also viewed at the link i have posted(5th pic from top to bottom) tis tip is suitable for finish grade latex, full bodied stains, alkalyd and waterborne enamels. .043 needle seems to be a better match for my job but i don't have it. Should i still give it a try? I was thinking that i need a wider fan pattern and more like a mist shooting out of the spray gun and best application at this point would be a compressor. There are few compressors locally available looks clean priced 150-200 $ range.
Its getting colder, days are shorter, i need to come up with a plan. Would that be better if i get a compressor, 30gallon and not to invest more on that turbine thing? Spraying clear coat with turbine compared to compressor set up started to worry me as well.
Another idea is getting that cheap purple HF gun and try. It uses half the PSI of my current gun. Only 13$, so no big deal.


I painted my 1967 Type 3 Fastback with a borrowed 2hp compressor from my work at the time. 30 gallon tank

It worked, granted , much smaller car than a Vanagon... Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. Reply with quote

Don't waste the $13. Try to borrow or rent a compressor.
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