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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:04 pm Post subject: Paint job from hell. |
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Hi. Some of you may recall my recon moves about painting my 84 westfalia and i have been knee deep with paints, reducers...I was asked to report back about my progress and i have to admit Its not going very vell.
Materials i am using is fine, its a base coat clear coat work and i am almost sure that my paint system is a total failure. I thought i would get decent result with that TITAN TS50 HVLP sprayer but it is not happening. Used 1 gallon base, which was a 1:1 reducer which means i have shooted about 2 gallons of color???
[img] I am learning therefore i cant make very accurate observations but what i am shooting is nowhere near what i see at the youtube videos. There is no mist, material comes out in a narrow pattern and when you try to adjust it, chunks, extreme orange peel, you name it. End result is, when you stand at the corner of the vehicle and look along the side panels, i can see my passes. In narrow parts such as door jamb, tail gate its not noticable but long panels on both side, pass and driver door and sliding door it is visible to the naked eye. I have talked to the guy at the supply store and he said it would look 10 times worst if i put clear over it as it is because clear coat magnifies.
[/img] I haven't try to shoot clear yet but i wouldn't surprise if it comes out not good too.
I am open to ideas of corrections. i really wanted to use what i have on my hand and not get a compressor since i have no use for it except this paint project but if it comes down to doing it right, i would look into it.
I tried to wet sand 800 grit, which knocked down the imperfections and resulted with a smooth surface but didn't do anything to the shades of horizontal passes. Also, 800 grit shows fine scratchmarks as well. I mas need to shoot more base on that area and if i need to wet sand, go up maybe 1500grit.
If i get a compressor and more paint i will have to sand with 400 grit to create mechanical bond, since there will be no chemical bond(maximum 24 hours) |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2301 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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????
HTF do you use that *without* a compressor? _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16476 Location: Brookeville, MD
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weswsimpson Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2015 Posts: 191 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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Hello,
I've used an HVLP Turbine paint sprayer--similar to what I think you are using to do interior kitchen cabinets and trim work. I believe that have different size tips, so that would be one thing to check out, the other thing is that the finish is very dependent on the viscosity of the paint, too think and it won't work, too thin and it runs. (thicker paint requires bigger/more turbines). The primer and finish coats, shot from the same sprayer with the same tip looked completely different when I applied them, the primer went on smooth, the finish coat was lumpy and full of orange peal. Fortunately, the finish coat dried smooth--but I was sick to my stomach until it had dried! These were interior house paints--I have no idea how automotive paints will respond.
My suggestion is that you're going to have to do some test panels. Go to the junk yard, get a couple hoods, sand and prep them and do your samples, try to reproduce the conditions that you'll face when you do the real job. I think you are going to have to wet sand and respray regardless.
Another option is Maaco--they are pretty cheap if you do all the prep, and since they do it all day long, they have their paints and sprayer dialed in.... |
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nemobuscaptain Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 3874
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alaskadan Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013 Posts: 1849 Location: anchor pt. alaska
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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Your titan ts50 looks very similar to our fuji hvlp setup that we spray cabinetry with. Built in compressor and all. Our system supplies heated air to the gun to a degree. This might not help you with automotive paints. You should get one of those viscosity test cups and check your paint. Then get the appropriate tip. We definitely use a different tip for clear finishes vs spraying latex on cabinets. The narrow pattern might be something else, clean all passages in the gun really well. Does your gun have a small clear tube from the top of the pot to the gun with a check valve in the middle? Is it installed in the right direction? |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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You are trying to do brain surgery with a chainsaw, but one gooddifference is the patient survives with no ill effects. _________________ .ssS! |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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westina wrote: |
Hi. Some of you may recall my recon moves about painting my 84 westfalia and i have been knee deep with paints, reducers...I was asked to report back about my progress and i have to admit Its not going very vell.
Materials i am using is fine, its a base coat clear coat work and i am almost sure that my paint system is a total failure. I thought i would get decent result with that TITAN TS50 HVLP sprayer but it is not happening. Used 1 gallon base, which was a 1:1 reducer which means i have shooted about 2 gallons of color???
[img] I am learning therefore i cant make very accurate observations but what i am shooting is nowhere near what i see at the youtube videos. There is no mist, material comes out in a narrow pattern and when you try to adjust it, chunks, extreme orange peel, you name it. End result is, when you stand at the corner of the vehicle and look along the side panels, i can see my passes. In narrow parts such as door jamb, tail gate its not noticable but long panels on both side, pass and driver door and sliding door it is visible to the naked eye. I have talked to the guy at the supply store and he said it would look 10 times worst if i put clear over it as it is because clear coat magnifies.
[/img] I haven't try to shoot clear yet but i wouldn't surprise if it comes out not good too.
I am open to ideas of corrections. i really wanted to use what i have on my hand and not get a compressor since i have no use for it except this paint project but if it comes down to doing it right, i would look into it.
I tried to wet sand 800 grit, which knocked down the imperfections and resulted with a smooth surface but didn't do anything to the shades of horizontal passes. Also, 800 grit shows fine scratchmarks as well. I mas need to shoot more base on that area and if i need to wet sand, go up maybe 1500grit.
If i get a compressor and more paint i will have to sand with 400 grit to create mechanical bond, since there will be no chemical bond(maximum 24 hours) |
If you truly mixed your paint with reducer instead of the catalyst/activator, that is part of your problem.
Your scratch mark issues will not be cleared up in the painting stages. Prior to laying down your finish coats you should be shooting a thinned down epoxy primer as a sealer coat. Pro shops with a booth will shoot the finish coat immediately after the sealer. As you are shooting at home, there is a greater chance of dust getting into the paint. Let the sealer dry completely, wet sand between 400-600 grit to ensure that there are no sanding marks or dust, then shoot the color. The scratching comes from heavier grits used earlier on. 800-1500 should really only be used for color sanding. One last thing, always use fresh paper. It actually cuts off the top of the surface where dull paper does not.
I'm not familiar with you equipment, but setup should be similar to all guns. From what I see, it appears that you are getting a lot of dry spray and you are not overlapping as well as you should. Adjust your gun for a wide spray pattern and overlap 50% with each pass. This is a good tutorial on gun set up: [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDk-pJWrJ0[/youtube]
Lastly, don't freak out. Everything you've done so far can be taken care of prior to clear. If you need to shoot another wet coat of primer to cover scratches and block it again, so be it. Slow, patient and especially methodical are keys to good paint.
Good luck! _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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stevey88 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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Sorry i couldn't post the pic of the sprayer, i get the "file too large" msg. Anyway this is exactly what i have, except i have swapped the gun with the one shown at the earlier link.
http://www.pawnplex.com/tools/ts50/index.htm
some info FROM WEBQUOTE: This 4 stage turbine system offers higher performance for the most demanding spray finishing applications.
It delivers 8 psi and 82 cfm to achieve the highest level atomization and production.
FEATURES
4 stage turbine - 8 psi at 82 cfm
20' (6 m) high quality air hose with quick disconnect fitting
Weight: 28 lbs. (12.7 kg)
Now it appears to me that our issue is not having enough PSI. Even if i get the purple gun from HF, it is listed for 20-70 working pressure. Since my turbine blows 8psi i am not sure if it would work. I have scanned the craigslist and i can get a 30gallon 5hp for reasonable price. It appears that 60 gallon is the preferred size but it's size, weight etc. I simply can't. Noise probably would be too much for my place as well. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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stevey88 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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I am not a professional body guy but the gun you bought needs a compressor that can give you 40psi at the gun. What you have used is a " fan " that can blow 82cfm at 8psi. I painted my Westy using a Devilbiss gfg670 ( bought used on ebay ) and a Sears 2HP compressor. I mounted a pressure gauge at the gun and adjust the pressure when the trigger is pressed, to 30psi. The result is very acceptable.
In your case, you have to use the gun that came with the fan or find a suitable compressor. _________________ Steve
87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed |
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weswsimpson Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2015 Posts: 191 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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Just to clarify.... there's more then one style of HVLP guns, the one the OP is using is a Turbine System--basically a fan that blows a lot of air through a garden hose at low pressure. What a Body Shop uses is also an HVLP gun, but it's connected to a narrow line and a compressor--two different setups that are not interchangeable. |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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djkeev wrote: |
Get the correct gun for the system, it will work great!
There are HVLP guns for high pressure systems and HVLP guns for a proper HVLP system.
My CapSpray system can lay down some nice paint with minimum overspray.
https://www.amazon.com/Titan-0524041-524041-Capspray-Maxum/dp/B00AWF6VJC
BTW..... as a beginner I'd go with a single stage paint system.
Dave |
I am very deep into the project, bought all the supply, clear coat etc. Honestly, i am confident that i can get done decent paint work, but i have screw up picking the right tool part. I have the original gun that came with the unit but there is no needle set available since its an older model and the tip on the gun is .051 and the air cap is number 1. According to the information, which can be also viewed at the link i have posted(5th pic from top to bottom) tis tip is suitable for finish grade latex, full bodied stains, alkalyd and waterborne enamels. .043 needle seems to be a better match for my job but i don't have it. Should i still give it a try? I was thinking that i need a wider fan pattern and more like a mist shooting out of the spray gun and best application at this point would be a compressor. There are few compressors locally available looks clean priced 150-200 $ range.
Its getting colder, days are shorter, i need to come up with a plan. Would that be better if i get a compressor, 30gallon and not to invest more on that turbine thing? Spraying clear coat with turbine compared to compressor set up started to worry me as well.
Another idea is getting that cheap purple HF gun and try. It uses half the PSI of my current gun. Only 13$, so no big deal. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3549 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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westina wrote: |
djkeev wrote: |
Get the correct gun for the system, it will work great!
There are HVLP guns for high pressure systems and HVLP guns for a proper HVLP system.
My CapSpray system can lay down some nice paint with minimum overspray.
https://www.amazon.com/Titan-0524041-524041-Capspray-Maxum/dp/B00AWF6VJC
BTW..... as a beginner I'd go with a single stage paint system.
Dave |
I am very deep into the project, bought all the supply, clear coat etc. Honestly, i am confident that i can get done decent paint work, but i have screw up picking the right tool part. I have the original gun that came with the unit but there is no needle set available since its an older model and the tip on the gun is .051 and the air cap is number 1. According to the information, which can be also viewed at the link i have posted(5th pic from top to bottom) tis tip is suitable for finish grade latex, full bodied stains, alkalyd and waterborne enamels. .043 needle seems to be a better match for my job but i don't have it. Should i still give it a try? I was thinking that i need a wider fan pattern and more like a mist shooting out of the spray gun and best application at this point would be a compressor. There are few compressors locally available looks clean priced 150-200 $ range.
Its getting colder, days are shorter, i need to come up with a plan. Would that be better if i get a compressor, 30gallon and not to invest more on that turbine thing? Spraying clear coat with turbine compared to compressor set up started to worry me as well.
Another idea is getting that cheap purple HF gun and try. It uses half the PSI of my current gun. Only 13$, so no big deal. |
I painted my 1967 Type 3 Fastback with a borrowed 2hp compressor from my work at the time. 30 gallon tank
It worked, granted , much smaller car than a Vanagon... _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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stevey88 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Paint job from hell. |
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Don't waste the $13. Try to borrow or rent a compressor. _________________ Steve
87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed |
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