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Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing
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a1steaksauce
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
As far as the modification to make a 4wd kubel chassis, they aren't as complicated as you would think. The gear shift rod was mounted on top of the tunnel leaving room for the drive shaft.


Using a schwimmer driveline? Yes it is. The center tunnel in a schwimmer is removable to access and install the multi piece driveline. The center tunnel in a kubel is part of the structural integrity of the pan. You'd have to first reinforce the pan to allow the top of the tunnel to be removable. Then you'd have to reconfigure your interior seats and seating positions as the center tunnel cover would have to be widened for the driveline to fit. And this is just me getting started on what all would be required lol. You can think it's easy all you want. I've personally seen, been in, worked on, rebuilt, etc schwimmer drivelines more times than I want to think about. You put a schwimmer next to a kubel and you'll easily see why a four wheel drive beetle/kubel never made it past the prototype stages.


splitjunkie wrote:
The type 287 is the Kommandeurwagen. He states that "some hundreds were built during the war".


And yet there isn't a single wartime picture that exists. Likewise there isn't one single vehicle anywhere to be found.

splitjunkie wrote:
I trust the info in this book more than any other. I also tend to trust documentation and pictures of the era which this book is based. I have known plenty of "experts" who have "been doing it for years" who claim to know it all only to be proven wrong later when the appropriate documentation comes to light.


Congrats on his supposedly thorough book. Took him all of what a year, maybe two to research and write? These guys that restore these vehicles have easily decades of research under their belts and eat, sleep, breathe kdf. You can believe the book all you want when it comes to these vehicles I'll stick with those who actually work on them.


Oh and that's not me with the schwimmer. Found it on some site. Not sure about it being a "sniper" as the soldat is loading a g43 into the schwimmer.


Last edited by a1steaksauce on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:28 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

a1steaksauce wrote:
splitjunkie wrote:
As far as the modification to make a 4wd kubel chassis, they aren't as complicated as you would think. The gear shift rod was mounted on top of the tunnel leaving room for the drive shaft.


Using a schwimmer driveline? Yes it is. The center tunnel in a schwimmer is removable to access and install the multi piece driveline. The center tunnel in a kubel is part of the structural integrity of the pan. You'd have to first reinforce the pan to allow the top of the tunnel to be removable.

Then you'd have to reconfigure your interior seats and seating positions as the center tunnel cover would have to be widened for the driveline to fit. And this is just me getting started on what all would be required lol. You can think it's easy all you want. I've personally seen, been in, worked on, rebuilt, etc schwimmer drivelines more times than I want to think about. You put a schwimmer next to a kubel and you'll easily see why a four wheel drive beetle/kubel never made it past the prototype stages.


splitjunkie wrote:
The type 87 is a 4wd Kubel. The type 287 is the Kommandeurwagen. He states that "some hundreds were built during the war".


And yet there isn't a single wartime picture of either vehicle that exists. Likewise there isn't one single vehicle anywhere to be found.

splitjunkie wrote:
I trust the info in this book more than any other. I also tend to trust documentation and pictures of the era which this book is based. I have known plenty of "experts" who have "been doing it for years" who claim to know it all only to be proven wrong later when the
appropriate documentation comes to light.


Congrats on his supposedly thorough book. Took him all of what a year, maybe two to research and write? These guys that restore these vehicles have easily decades of research under their belts and eat, sleep, breathe kdf. You can believe the book all you want when it comes to these vehicles I'll stick with those who actually work on them.


Oh and that's not me with the schwimmer. Found it on some site. Not sure about it being a "sniper" as the soldat is loading a g43 into the schwimmer.


First you said there were no 4wd Kubels and now you are saying didn't make it past the prototype stage? Which is it?

Also we see no pictures of you working on any wartime VWs so do you exist or not?

They only made 6 4wd Kubels. Two based on the Type 62 body and 4 based on the Type 82 body. Do you really think you are very likely to ever see one in the flesh? Only if you are one of the Grundmans which you are definitely not.

You want proof. Here you go.

First, here is a little history lesson. Sorry I got it all out of books. Doesn't make any less true.

The first Kubels were Type 62's. They were based on the Beetle (VW39) floor pan. They had standard Beetle rear and front axles with no reduction boxes or offset spindles. To gain ground clearance they were fitted with 18" wheels and tires. They look similar to a production Kubel but the most obvious difference was the spare tire was countersunk into the front hood. The Type 86 was developed based on this floor pan.

This is a period photo of a Type 86 floorpan taken at Porsche's shop.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We see bolt on front differential very similar to a Type 166, shift lever riding on top of the unmodified tunnel and 18" wheels with no reduction boxes. 18" wheels and tires were never fitted to the Beetle so we can rule out that this chassis was built for a Beetle.

Here are drawings from '39

Front differential

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Front differential and suspension.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rear view showing no reduction boxes

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Napoleon hat modified for bolt on differential

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cross section of tunnel showing drive shaft inside and shift rod on top

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Top view

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Side view showing all details

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Two Type 86's were built and tested. Their suspensions were later modified to the Type 87 configuration in 1940.


The Type 87 was based on the Type 82 which is the production Kubel with the spare tire mounted on top of the hood.

This vehicle introduced the offset front spindles and the reduction boxes on the rear axles. As a result of the suspension changes they fitted the Type 82 and Type 87 with 16" wheels and tires.

Here are drawings that show the Type 87 chassis

The Napoleon hat same as the Type 86

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The tunnel cross section which is also the same as the Type 86

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Front view showing the new offset spindles

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rear view now showing reduction boxes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Side view showing same details as the Type 86 but now with offset spindles and reduction boxes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Top view

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So now you keep saying that these things didn't exist because there are no wartime photos. Hate to break it to you but there is at least one picture of a Type 87.

The nazis did a lot of stupid and evil things but I don't think they were dumb enough to put snow chains on the front tires of a rear wheel drive vehicle.

This car is identified as a Type 87 in both the Chris Barber book and the Dumond Porsche Museum book.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The vehicle is fitted with nipple hubcaps and perhaps some sort of weights on the back wheels so unfortunately we cannot see the front brake drum hub but the other clue is the snow sprayed all down the side from the front tire.


There is another picture that appears to show a Type 87. This vehicle is fitted with snow chains again front and rear but also has some paddle affairs that look similar to ones that they tried out of the Type 166 to help out in the snow.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Again, why would you put these on the front wheels of a rear wheel drive vehicle?


Here is yet another vehicle which used the same drive shaft in the tunnel concept.

The Type 128 which was a prototype that came before the Type 166.

Browse the pictures and you will see that the car utilizes the majority of a Type 1 tunnel, rear torsion housing and forks. The shift levers rode on top just like with the Type 86 and Type 87 but had a cover over them. The tunnel is completely intact.

http://ww2vw.com/restoration/vwporsche-schwimmwagen-type-128-from-1941/

This makes perfect sense since the Type 86 program was started in 1939 before the Schwimmwagen project. They followed where they had already been and then wisely decided to change the tunnel configuration to allow full access to the driveshaft.

The Type 87 never made it to production and the Type 287 Kommanderwagen is somewhat of a mystery as to how many were built.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
First you said there were no 4wd Kubels and now you are saying didn't make it past the prototype stage? Which is it?


i've always stated that if they made them they never got past the prototype stage. thanks for confirming me right about that.

splitjunkie wrote:
Also we see no pictures of you working on any wartime VWs so do you exist or not?


hey i wrote it down so i must exist Rolling Eyes

splitjunkie wrote:
They only made 6 4wd Kubels. Two based on the Type 62 body and 4 based on the Type 82 body


yes, and never in production.

splitjunkie wrote:
Do you really think you are very likely to ever see one in the flesh? Only if you are one of the Grundmans which you are definitely not.


if i wanted to yes. but here again one must exist for me to see. do you think the Grundmans do their own restoration work? i know who restored that early war scwhimmer and have made and bought parts from them.

splitjunkie wrote:
You want proof. Here you go.


and yet not a single picture of a 4wd beetle and only prototype early war kubels with a crude pre-schwimmer 4wd system.

splitjunkie wrote:
So now you keep saying that these things didn't exist because there are no wartime photos. Hate to break it to you but there is at least one picture of a Type 87.


no, go reread what i wrote. i've always stated that if they did exist they were never in production and never made it past the prototype stage.


splitjunkie wrote:
The Type 87 never made it to production


you just confirmed my statements right there, do you not realize that?

splitjunkie wrote:
and the Type 287 Kommanderwagen is somewhat of a mystery as to how many were built.


but there's not a single picture and not a single one that exists today.


i have always contested from the beginning that they may have made prototype vehicle variants but neither the 4wd kubel or 4wd beetle made it into production.

by the time the schwimmer was in full production with its proven driveline it would have been a massive undertaking to adapt that setup to a kubel or beetle. vw would not have gone back and put their earlier prototype 4wd setup into either vehicle as it had already shown its obvious flaws (closed tunnel with no serviceability for starters).

neither the 4wd kubel prototypes nor a 4wd beetle platform ever made it into production. you still have yet to prove this statement otherwise.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

a1steaksauce wrote:


Yes, beetles built on the kubel platform. That much the author got right. There was never any 4wd kubel variants so his claim about that information was completely incorrect.


Your words from earlier in this thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
a1steaksauce wrote:


Yes, beetles built on the kubel platform. That much the author got right. There was never any 4wd kubel variants so his claim about that information was completely incorrect.


Your words from earlier in this thread.


taken out of context.

the author of the article i was referring to stated that they simply took a 4wd kubel platform that was in production and installed it on a beetle.

again, i've always contested that they were never in production of either vehicle and produced them in the numbers claimed.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

Chris, It occurred to me after reading your well researched response to the question of 4WD Kublewagens that perhaps the reason that it was not pursued into production might have been due to the lack of torsional rigidity with the non-structural Kuble body. After spending what appears to be a thorough design and testing period, shortcomings of the concept would surely have become obvious. The advantages of the added structure of the sedan body may have eliminated problems encountered during field testing which appears to have been fairly broad in the wide range of terrain the test vehicles were subject to. One would guess that after spending considerable time and resources on the program that some application of the technology would be sought. Transferring the design concept to the Typ 82E would appear to be a natural evolution ? The fact that reference to specific production numbers of the Typ 87 appear in several different sources would indicate to me that they had some basis in fact.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

Gene,

The term Type 87 keeps getting associated with the Kommanderwagen when it actually referred to the 4wd Kubelwagen. The Kommanderwagen was the Type 287.

The first 4wd project was clearly the Type 86 which was based on the Type 62 Kubel not for the Schwimmwagen or Kommanderwagen. They built two Type 86's. For more interesting reading check out this thread about what is quite possibly one of those two cars.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482741

This one was purchased by the Grundmans in 2011. The story is that it had the 4wd pan on it when it was found in a junkyard many years agoand was gotten back on the road by swapping pans so it is currently in the Type 62 configuration with the tall wheels and Beetle axles.


The Barber book shows a picture of a Type 86 which had been converted to the Type 87 suspension from 1941 outside the Porsche shops which might be the same vehicle. The book and the back story of the Grundman's car is that it was kept by the Porsche workshops and used as a utility vehicle.


This picture shows the main mod required to fit the body on the 4wd pan. A hole for the shift rod to go through.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is the main modification that would be requited to install a Beetle body on a Type 87 pan making a Type 287. They also widened the fenders but that was about it as far as fitting the body to the pan.

It is very possible that the Beetle body wasn't stiff enough for this conversion. Then again it might very well have been. People have building dune buggies and Baha Bugs for years and those cars take a ton of abuse. Often with no or minimal bracing. It's not like these cars had tons of HP and torque.

I saw the factory museum's Kommanderwagen last year.

The front beam had an extra set of the brackets that are normally used for bolting the beam to the frame head with heavy brackets for the roller in the front but other than that I didn't see any other bracing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It is listed as a '46 but there were a couple of other cars that were clearly not the year that they were being displayed as. I'm not saying this car is actually earlier but it is possible.

There are wartime pictures of a Komanderwagen in the Barber book but it is probably a prototype.


I suspect that most of the pictures of Kommanderwagens are actually Type 82Es as was the case in the web page posted earlier in this post.

If there were only a couple hundred Kommanderwagens built then they would be very rare to start with. Being a military vehicle would mean a lot of them would have been destroyed during or after the war making finding one even harder.

After the war the British operated a rebuild facility at the factory. They rebuilt cars that had been wrecked since cars were so hard to come by at that point. Lots of cars got cycled through that shop so any Kommanderwagen could have ended up being rebuilt using a new type 1 one or Kubel pan.

Rare cars turn up so who knows. VW38 number 6 was supposedly destroyed like all of the other VW 38s except for the one the factory has and hitler's vert and yet it turned up in Lithuania several years back. All of the VW30s were reportedly destroyed yet one of the pans is being restored by the Grundmans.

We don't know what still survives until it is found.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

saw this factory war time video of what looks like a 4wd Kubel.

https://youtu.be/h9m1YB2FL-A?t=206

Hard to tell what car it is, but the seat is definitely Kubel.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Where are all the wartime pics of 4wd Kubels or Beetles or schwimmers in N. Africa?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

Chris, After reading everyone's input on the subject of 4WD Kublewagens, Beetles and Schwimmwagens I would have to come to the conclusion that there are valid points to be considered from all, but that there is unlikely to be a unanimous consensus on all points by everyone.

Mr. Steaksauce is correct in stating that " the books get it wrong ", perhaps not all wrong, but wrong often enough to leave open the door to information yet to be discovered. I have perhaps 6 or 8 books on military VWs by different authors, all with at least some contradictory information, although I do not have the Barber book you mention ( I don't know the actual title ).

I'd like to apologize to codemachinest for having participated in high jacking his original post requesting information on the front drive mechanism for the 4WD system, and allowing it to morph into a circular discussion somewhat off topic.

My comments on the Kommandeurwagen were focused on the example described in the Mayer book with photos of what apparently appears to be a prototype with reference to several hundred production examples " mostly going to North Africa ". It has the clearest photos that are useable for any sort of detail.

It is still my intention to replicate as close as possible that vehicle in " dunklegelb " to use for my own pleasure whether positive proof of its use by DAK exists now or comes to light in the future.

I have a 1950 Standard Beetle that I dressed up as a " captured vehicle " in 2003 for use at airshows with our WWII Artillery Spotter aircraft with only the knowledge that such vehicles were popular with Allied and no photographic proof to support the idea. In 2015 I stumbled across a period photo of an actual captured KDF Beetle with a U.S. Army star on the door identical to the one we put on ours.

I would say on the plus side, it has certainly stimulated some diverse opinions as well as some useful information that some may not have been aware of.

Thanks to all, Gene
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
saw this factory war time video of what looks like a 4wd Kubel.

https://youtu.be/h9m1YB2FL-A?t=206

Hard to tell what car it is, but the seat is definitely Kubel.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Where are all the wartime pics of 4wd Kubels or Beetles or schwimmers in N. Africa?


At first before where you had the video start they are clearly showing a Kubel interor with no 4wd shift lever and the e-brake in the normal position so that is most likely a 2wd kubel but then it appears to show a Schwimmer interior with the larger tunnel when they are engaging 4wd. It does look like the passenger seat is missing at this point and it is a tighter shot so maybe they pulled it to get a better view of the lever but that would be a different vehicle than the one we see first from above.

That Kubel's front wheels sure seem to speed up quickly when it loses traction so I would suspect that is a 4wd Kubel. It has the spare on the hood as opposed to sunk into the hood so that would be one of the four Type 87s that were built.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

While this picture is labeled '46 it does have one detail that the post war Kommanderwagens didn't have. A ragtop. Wartime Kommanderwagens supposedly all had ragtops.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
While this picture is labeled '46 it does have one detail that the post war Kommanderwagens didn't have. A ragtop. Wartime Kommanderwagens supposedly all had ragtops.


A ragtop is an easy enough thing to install.

What isn’t easy is a 4wd system. That beetle has it. The front drums are schwimmer drums. Which are a dead giveaway for a 4wd system.

Could that be a prototype? Perhaps. Could it be a post war build? More than likely given it’s using a schwimmer driveline.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

a1steaksauce wrote:
splitjunkie wrote:
While this picture is labeled '46 it does have one detail that the post war Kommanderwagens didn't have. A ragtop. Wartime Kommanderwagens supposedly all had ragtops.


A ragtop is an easy enough thing to install.

What isn’t easy is a 4wd system. That beetle has it. The front drums are schwimmer drums. Which are a dead giveaway for a 4wd system.

Could that be a prototype? Perhaps. Could it be a post war build? More than likely given it’s using a schwimmer driveline.


Are you saying that the prototype Kommanderwagens had some sort of different front brake drum?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

This wartime Kommanderwagen has a very large sunroof which based on the front of the picture that I posted look to have similar size and placement.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
Are you saying that the prototype Kommanderwagens had some sort of different front brake drum?


Pre-schwimmer development I'd say yes given that the tech drawings and the one picture of that early kubel in snow both show a different front hub assembly version than what was standard on schwimmers from the beginning to end of their production.

Also look at the rims on both vehicles. They are different widths. Likewise they sit in the fender area differently. Which leads me to believe that the track width is different between the two vehicles. Which to me means they are not the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

The first photo provided by Chris sure looks like it's been through the war judging by the obvious front end damage ! Information I have on the Kommandeurwagen sedan bodied vehicles mentions " most were sunroof versions ", so one would have to assume some were not ? The second photo which I believe was most likely a prototype, has the wider Kronprinz wheels, quite a bit different than the supposed post war vehicle photo. Not sure a standard wheel could be easily modified to clear the 4WD front hub, but Schwimmer wheels would likely have been used ?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
Bruce wrote:
saw this factory war time video of what looks like a 4wd Kubel.

https://youtu.be/h9m1YB2FL-A?t=206

Hard to tell what car it is, but the seat is definitely Kubel.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Where are all the wartime pics of 4wd Kubels or Beetles or schwimmers in N. Africa?


.... then it appears to show a Schwimmer interior with the larger tunnel when they are engaging 4wd.

It can't be a Schwimmer, the driver's sitting on a Kubelwagen seat!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

geneL3c wrote:
Not sure a standard wheel could be easily modified to clear the 4WD front hub, but Schwimmer wheels would likely have been used ?


There is no modification necessary. Kubel rims fit on a schwimmer just fine. Also schwimmer rims are a positive offset wheel. The track width of those two vehicles is different.

And accident damage doesn't mean it went thru a war. Heck what the GI's did with the post war beetles during their occupation you'd think those cars went thru a war lol.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

geneL3c wrote:
The first photo provided by Chris sure looks like it's been through the war judging by the obvious front end damage ! Information I have on the Kommandeurwagen sedan bodied vehicles mentions " most were sunroof versions ", so one would have to assume some were not ? The second photo which I believe was most likely a prototype, has the wider Kronprinz wheels, quite a bit different than the supposed post war vehicle photo. Not sure a standard wheel could be easily modified to clear the 4WD front hub, but Schwimmer wheels would likely have been used ?


There are plenty of pictures of schwimmers with narrow 16" wheels with nipple hubcaps so it would just be a matter of swapping the wheels.
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You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 87 or 877 beetle 4x4 front diff housing Reply with quote

Chris, I tried to find the Chris Barber book through several sources but the price ranged from about $ 750.00 to over $ 3000.00 ! What's it printed on ? Still trying to figure out what the correct designation is, Typ 87, Typ 287, Typ 887, no two sources seem to agree. I think your comment on the Barber book being more credible might weigh heavier, but I don't think I'm likely to find an affordable copy that I could reference.
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