| Author |
Message |
RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1348
Location: S.W. MI
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:36 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
 |
|
Back in the late 70s I ran 20w20 or st. 20 in the winter in stock engine ( below freezing). Now use Swepco 30 wt. it has a good additive package like Penn, don't drive VWs in winter anymore! Also have a 4 cylinder 1800 cc air cooled Wisconsin industrial motor on a piece of equipment, they say 30 wt. only also, but the fan is MUCH larger then VW, and has oil squirters and is splashed lubed, oil relief is set at 15lbs. runs a 5-10 lbs, no oil cooler! I believe the HP engines people build and have heat issues are due to the fan capacity, I haven't seen too many larger HP/HD fans for sale!
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:54 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
I believe the reason there are no high output fans available for rodded up VW engines is that the extra power is never used for more than a few seconds at a time. It still only takes about 40 HP to sustain 65 mph on the highway in a Beetle even if you do have 250 HP on tap. Your industrial engine is designed to run at full power all day long.
Back to the oil question, I picked up some 5W20 oil and now that the weather has cooled I will try it and see what difference it makes on oil pressure and temperature. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| Frodge wrote: |
I read this whole thread. Now I know why the moderators disallow this topic in the general forums. It reminds me of when I was a teenager. The police would let literally thousands of us drink our beers in the parking lots down at the beach off Father Capodanno Blvd, but would bust chops if we left there. They wanted all of us in one spot. Geez. I didn’t learn much from this at all. I’m going with use a 10w30 or 10w40 and change it often.
I do have one question though. If you take let’s say a10w30 oil and pour it out of a bottle, is it pouring like a 10w or a 30w? So basically, does the oil thicken as it gets hotter? |
Apparently you did learn something! 
This quote is from quite a few websites dealing with oil viscosity, including Mobil1:
'The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two viscosity grades; for example, 10W-30 designates a common multi-grade oil. The first number '10W' is the viscosity of the oil at cold temperature and the second number is the viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F).'
So yes, when cold (as in room temperature, even if in the 90s), it flows like 10 weight, and as it heats up to operating temperature (~200*F) it flows like 30 (or 40) weight. It has to do with added polymers.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HeyWatchThis
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016
Posts: 96
Location: SoDak
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
Not as I understand it.
The # in front of the W is not generated from the same test as the latter number. Let me say that again.. The # in front of the W is not generated from the same test as the latter number. Though both relate to viscosity, they are not "equivalent" tests. A 10W oil at low temperature may not show the same flow characteristics (viscosity) as a 10 weight oil at 210 degrees. (*edited for mental slips)
0W-30
15W-30
At operating temperature (180-240) will have (nearly) the same viscosity. However, at 15 degrees fahrenhiet in the winter, outside, the 0W-30 will be much easier on the engine at start-up, and will flow better and lubricate where it's supposed to sooner than the 15W-30 will.
If you live in Florida or Las Vegas where it never really gets below 40 for extended periods of time, you can run straight 30 weight oil and it won't matter whether you have 30 weight, 15W-30, 10W-30, 5W-30, 0W-30... Because the plain 30 weight will never freeze up and turn to molasses.
I just recently read through 20 pages, and browsed through here-and-there of the 218 page pinned up top and came to this conclusion after giving up and doing my own research:
Pick the "W" number that matches your winter conditions
Pick a 30 or 40 for the 2nd number
Pick and oil that has 1400ppm+ zinc, or add a good zinc addititve
Change every 2000-3000 miles and don't look back.
All engine oils perform near the top end of "heat transfer" fluids/oils in terms of specific heat and coefficient of thermal conduction based on the studies I've seen.
Last edited by HeyWatchThis on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Splitdog
Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 4125
Location: Planet VW
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:52 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| HeyWatchThis wrote: |
Pick the "W" number that matches your winter conditions
Pick a 30 or 40 for the 2nd number
Pick and oil that has 1400ppm+ zinc, or add a good zinc addititve. |
This. ^^^
_________________
CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker
Last edited by Splitdog on Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| HeyWatchThis wrote: |
| They result in inverse relationships. The W numbers are at low temperature, and lower numbers on the W number have lower viscosity. Lower numbers on the 2nd number have higher viscosity. |
That is not correct. A higher number for either figure means a higher viscosity at the temperature it's measured.
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HeyWatchThis
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2016
Posts: 96
Location: SoDak
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| You are correct. I got that one flipped in my head at the time of posting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:43 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| HeyWatchThis wrote: |
Not as I understand it.
The # in front of the W is not generated from the same test as the latter number. Let me say that again.. The # in front of the W is not generated from the same test as the latter number. Though both relate to viscosity, they are not "equivalent" tests. A 10W oil at low temperature may not show the same flow characteristics (viscosity) as a 10 weight oil at 210 degrees. (*edited for mental slips)
0W-30
15W-30
At operating temperature (180-240) will have (nearly) the same viscosity. However, at 15 degrees fahrenhiet in the winter, outside, the 0W-30 will be much easier on the engine at start-up, and will flow better and lubricate where it's supposed to sooner than the 15W-30 will.
If you live in Florida or Las Vegas where it never really gets below 40 for extended periods of time, you can run straight 30 weight oil and it won't matter whether you have 30 weight, 15W-30, 10W-30, 5W-30, 0W-30... Because the plain 30 weight will never freeze up and turn to molasses.
I just recently read through 20 pages, and browsed through here-and-there of the 218 page pinned up top and came to this conclusion after giving up and doing my own research:
Pick the "W" number that matches your winter conditions
Pick a 30 or 40 for the 2nd number
Pick and oil that has 1400ppm+ zinc, or add a good zinc addititve
Change every 2000-3000 miles and don't look back.
All engine oils perform near the top end of "heat transfer" fluids/oils in terms of specific heat and coefficient of thermal conduction based on the studies I've seen. |
Every 2000-3000?
Way to often with a good oil these days. Unless you're still running an old bug with no filter.
As for ZDDP...1000-1300ppm is all that's needed. More is not better.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:06 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:55 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
My wife drove our '91 Vanagon 2.1L WBXer 25-35K miles a year when it was new. She pretty much refused to have it out of service so I could do an oil change, thus the initial oil change interval was around 10K and later when I went to using synthetic oil I just changed it once annually. Oil testing showed the oil was still fine.
I took the engine out of service at around 180K miles when the rod bolts were showing signs of stretching, a typical WBX failure at that mileage or even earlier. Ten times as many oil changes (as many claim is necessary) would have gotten zero more miles out of the engine.
Most engine failures I have seen over the years are because either the engines had either insufficient oil or water, not because the lubricant isn't up to the job. For the old rigs I own and lube with modern oils, the oil change intervals are close to irrelevant, this even applies to a lesser extent to air cooled engines.
By all means keep your crankcase ventilation and thermostat operating in factory new condition and change the oil fairly frequently if you only drive short distances especially during the winter months, otherwise just keep the oil level up and drive on.
Last edited by Wildthings on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:57 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
Never an issue with oil at 2000 - 3000 miles. Never.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:12 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
My wife drove our '91 WBX 25-35K miles a year when it was new. She pretty much refused to have it out of service so I could do an oil change, thus the initial oil change interval was around 10K and later when I went to using synthetic oil I just changed it once annually. Oil testing showed the oil was still fine.
I took the engine out of service at around 180K miles when the rod bolts were showing signs of stretching, a typical WBX failure at that mileage or even earlier. Ten times as many oil changes (as many claim is necessary) would have gotten zero more miles out of the engine.
Most engine failures I have seen over the years are because either the engines had either insufficient oil or water, not because the lubricant isn't up to the job. For the old rigs I own and lube with modern oils, the oil change intervals are close to irrelevant, this even applies to a lesser extent to air cooled engines.
By all means keep your crankcase ventilation and thermostat operating in factory new condition and change the oil fairly frequently if you only drive short distances especially during the winter months, otherwise just keep the oil level up and drive on. |
That is pretty poor engine life from your Subaru! The Forester my wife is driving now has 270K on it with the 2 ltr turbo engine and it's still running just fine. My cousin has one too with 500K on it when I talked to him a year ago!
I just got off the phone with another cousin who told me you are right, you can run oil for a full year without changing it. He does it in his highway rig with a Cat 3406 engine. He sends in an oil sample every couple of months ($75 each time) and adjusts the PH levels and increases the additives as needed. He also runs a bypass filter with a compressed cotton 1 micron filter to clean up the deposits of carbon in the oil.
That engine holds 10 gallons of oil, is that practical in a VW engine that holds 2.5 quarts of oil? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:05 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
Since you don't seem to know a 2.1L WBXer (Waterboxer) is a '86 and later Volkswagen Vanagon engine and not a Subaru. The rod bolt stretch the factory engines experienced started showing up as early as 140K miles on some engines and has nothing to do with how often one changed the oil. If one got passed 180K miles before the rod bolt stretch caused the oil pressure to drop they had luck on their side as a very few 2.1 WBXer engines did not experience this syndrome. If you ignored the problem or tried to cover it up by running 20w50 oil the rod bolts were still going to fail at the same point in time. As I said changing the oil ten times as often would not give any extra life as the rod bolt stretching and eventual failure had nothing to do with lubrication instead it was a fatigue/metallurgy problem. The 1.9L WBXer engines did not experience this syndrome as they used different rod bolts and most 2.1L engines that get rebuilt are rebuilt using 1.9L rod bolts to prevent the failure from happening again.
| oprn wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
My wife drove our '91 WBX 25-35K miles a year when it was new. She pretty much refused to have it out of service so I could do an oil change, thus the initial oil change interval was around 10K and later when I went to using synthetic oil I just changed it once annually. Oil testing showed the oil was still fine.
I took the engine out of service at around 180K miles when the rod bolts were showing signs of stretching, a typical WBX failure at that mileage or even earlier. Ten times as many oil changes (as many claim is necessary) would have gotten zero more miles out of the engine.
Most engine failures I have seen over the years are because either the engines had either insufficient oil or water, not because the lubricant isn't up to the job. For the old rigs I own and lube with modern oils, the oil change intervals are close to irrelevant, this even applies to a lesser extent to air cooled engines.
By all means keep your crankcase ventilation and thermostat operating in factory new condition and change the oil fairly frequently if you only drive short distances especially during the winter months, otherwise just keep the oil level up and drive on. |
That is pretty poor engine life from your Subaru! The Forester my wife is driving now has 270K on it with the 2 ltr turbo engine and it's still running just fine. My cousin has one too with 500K on it when I talked to him a year ago!
I just got off the phone with another cousin who told me you are right, you can run oil for a full year without changing it. He does it in his highway rig with a Cat 3406 engine. He sends in an oil sample every couple of months ($75 each time) and adjusts the PH levels and increases the additives as needed. He also runs a bypass filter with a compressed cotton 1 micron filter to clean up the deposits of carbon in the oil.
That engine holds 10 gallons of oil, is that practical in a VW engine that holds 2.5 quarts of oil? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| Sorry I was confusing the WBX with the Subie WRX. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| Sorry I was confusing the WBX with the Subie WRX. |
I suspected as much and accept part of the blame, as such I went back and changed '91 WBX to '91 Vanagon 2.1L WBXer to make my post clearer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dlearl476
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2008
Posts: 82
Location: Las Vegas, NV. USA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:17 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
Wow. What a great thread. It's something that never occurred to me. As long as I've owned bugs (since the family bought a 21 window Westy in 1960, a '67 1500 (MSRP $1350.00) and several 60's and 70's bug through the 80's, I've always believed nothing beat Castrol GTX 20W/50. I have a feeling to heavy weight of oil might be exacerbating my Chinese tin/no thermostat issues.
When I get my tin situation sorted and thermostat re-installed, I'm going to have to get some gauges and do some homework. John, I'll probably be calling you.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
Except this is a VW site and the WBX was around long before the WRX....
| oprn wrote: |
| Sorry I was confusing the WBX with the Subie WRX. |
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ramsman
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2019
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
Correct. There are many different types of contaminants that can enter an engine oil, and most of them have destructive potential. These include water, glycol, fuel, the wrong oil, dirt, wear debris, etc. Solid contaminants are generally referred to as being the most destructive. After oxygen, silicon is the most abundant element on the earth. Silica and silicates (forms of silicon dioxide) make up a large proportion of the earth’s crust in the form of natural soils and terrain dust.
AC Delco Division of General Motors tested diesel engines and found an eight-fold improvement in wear rates and engine life with lower lube oil contaminant levels. In a related study on both diesel and automotive engines, General Motors reported that “compared to a 40-micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-micron filtration”. Read that again. That's a lot of motivation for clean oil.
There's a pretty good primer on the effects of contamination and it's effect on motor oils here: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| [email protected] wrote: |
Except this is a VW site and the WBX was around long before the WRX....
| oprn wrote: |
| Sorry I was confusing the WBX with the Subie WRX. |
|
True enough though WBX is a term I had never heard of before I found this site about 3 years ago. They are as rare as hen's teeth in my part of the country. There are WRXs everywhere here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: The importance of choosing the correct oil weight. |
|
|
| ramsman wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| Quality of the oil has little to do with how often it should be changed. Contamination should be the trigger. Short runs, frequent restarts, rich mixtures, no thermostat, cold weather, heavy throttle foot, high local humidity all contribute to oil contamination and the need to change it regardless of what oil you use. |
Correct. There are many different types of contaminants that can enter an engine oil, and most of them have destructive potential. These include water, glycol, fuel, the wrong oil, dirt, wear debris, etc. Solid contaminants are generally referred to as being the most destructive. After oxygen, silicon is the most abundant element on the earth. Silica and silicates (forms of silicon dioxide) make up a large proportion of the earth’s crust in the form of natural soils and terrain dust.
AC Delco Division of General Motors tested diesel engines and found an eight-fold improvement in wear rates and engine life with lower lube oil contaminant levels. In a related study on both diesel and automotive engines, General Motors reported that “compared to a 40-micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-micron filtration”. Read that again. That's a lot of motivation for clean oil.
There's a pretty good primer on the effects of contamination and it's effect on motor oils here: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter |
Better filtration was the ultimate deciding factor. Oil with only 2-3K on it will not have enough contamination to be an issue. Do an oil analysis and see our self. I have.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
