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Another syncro Fuel tank saga
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

87 westy syncro
Extensive overhaul including fuel tank. Tank was swollen? and extra difficult to remove/install. Sending unit was leaking and repaired but recently parked at a steep angle (to drivers side) and noted fuel pouring out of tank, clearly coming from the top of the tank (just filled tank). Suspect valves on top of tank.
Looking at dreaded removal of tank.
Questions-
I have read and heard that removal of the transmission is mandatory but the engine perhaps not? And also heard from experts that engine removal IS necessary. Confused there.
Also heard that syncro tanks are NLA. But I have found a few on the inter-webs. Perhaps the euro tanks (without evap system) are available but NA are not? And If I got a euro tank would I be ok to install it to my NA van?
There is currently one tank for sale on the classifieds.
I don't necessarily expect a cracked tank but thinking of sourcing a new (best) or used tank to prepare/fix so that once the trans (and engine?) are out I can quickly install the new tank (with all new parts). The perhaps re-hab or sell (if its good) the old tank.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

I suspect one or both of your rollover valve nipples has cracked off. They're extremely brittle, and quite often break when the tank is R&Rd
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

Syncro truck tanks are different than Syncro van tanks
Syncro diesel tanks are different than Syncro gas tanks.
Be careful what you buy.

Mark



Honuak wrote:
...
Questions-...
Also heard that syncro tanks are NLA. But I have found a few on the inter-webs. Perhaps the euro tanks (without evap system) are available but NA are not? And If I got a euro tank would I be ok to install it to my NA van?
There is currently one tank for sale on the classifieds. ......
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

I have a euro diesel syncro tank that I am installing. It also has the "roll over" vent valves. So, I would not be trying to get a euro tank just for that reason. The valve is the same valve that goes in the expansion tanks on a 2wd and last time I checked are available new as well as new grommets.

I've only dealt with removing a tank once. You'd need a lot of patience to remove one with the engine in place. The tank does not drop straight down. Another member used a piece of heavy plastic between the frame and the sending unit which really does make the difference of easily getting the tank out and in.

I do have the gasser syncro tank I removed that came in North America, that I would sell reasonable, but freight would be brutal.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

Does anyone have the part number for the NA gasser tank?

A question that may not have an answer but:
I had never parked at such an extreme angle before. Could the valves develop such a large break over time or would the re-install be the more likely cause of damage and I simply didn't know about it until I parked the way I did?
Fuel was literally pouring out of the top of the tank.


Last edited by Honuak on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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flomulgator
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

You do not need to remove the engine, I didn't. But you will need to be able to support the engine. I used an engine hoist to hold and maneuver (tip) the engine while I was removing the transaxle, then replaced the hoist with some crossed brace boards in the hatch to support the engine once the transaxle was out. This method allowed me to leave the engine hooked up to everything, and then shut the tailgate for the rest of the project.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

The gasser tank I removed, all 3 grommets looked good from the outside, but were almost completely dissolved on the inside, my hunch is the blend fuel ate them up. The grommets on the diesel tank looked like new.

To me, the syncro fuel tank is not the best design. If you neck fill it, the level of the fuel will be right up against the top. Any fuel slosh if the tank is sealed is going into the charcoal canister. There is no fuel trap because the tank is flush against the floor. On the 2wd, fuel needs to fight gravity to get into the expansion tanks and each could hold a quart before getting into the roll over valve.

Both style tanks have the fuel filler grommet submerged. It's friction that seals
it.

I will not be neck filling my syncro once I get the conversion completed. To me, other than the coolant, it is way quicker to drop the engine and trans together and leaving them assembled on a syncro. I've had mine in and out a few times doing the conversion.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

The tank was removed and serviced in the past? The installer likely tightened up the straps too much and cracked a rollover valve.
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Microbusdeluxe Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

My 2 cents: You're better off removing engine and trans. I guess others have been able to do it with engine in place, but I had enough trouble doing this with an empty compartment. YMMV.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
The tank was removed and serviced in the past? The installer likely tightened up the straps too much and cracked a rollover valve.


This is what I'm thinking too but the resto was performed 2 years ago and it never leaked like this. I had some seepage around the sender that I fixed myself (resto done outside of my home state of Alaska) and always seemed to have a very slight fume smell after a fill up. As stated I had never parked at that kind of an angle right after a fill up before.

I am trying to source a new or used tank and seem to have found a transporter petrol tank new from eastern Europe but from what I can gather the tank itself is unlikely to be bad, just the valves. At this point I am not averse to buying a new tank but if a good used one is just as good? (comments please) I'm still thinking it would be good to have a new/good used tank with new valves/parts etc built up because the guy who did the resto on my van said my tank was very swollen and very difficult to remove/reinstall. I'm anticipating additional damage to the tank getting it out/in again.
I have read the other threads but hoping to distill the recommendations. Every other part of my van has been redone and should last until electric drive modification kits are ubiquitous. So I want to put the most robust parts in.
I read that marine grade rollover parts can be used?
Gowesty has a kit?
Van Cafe?
I anticipate prepping the replacement tank off critical path so it can go right in.
I wont know exactly the issue until I get the tank out but would rather have parts that I don't need. And there are only so many things it can be.
Pic of the offending tank.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

I can see one problem off the bat. VW originally used an Oetiker type clamp on those hoses. They are the type of clamp that is for a specific hose ID and is crimped to snug. Those worm type clamps are not what I would recommend for fuel hose, vapor or pressure.

I can't imagine your tank has grown in size. They do seem to be bigger than the opening they reside in. It's passing the one end with the sending unit that is the tight fit.

There are not really any wear items in the roll over/ vent valves. They are plastic and brittle over years, but are available new at the moment as well as the grommets. I do not think you will find a NOS fuel tank. They will be used and shipping will be costly.

I would go ahead and drop yours and see what you need to get it fixed, then decide how to proceed. My bet is your tank is usable. If you are paying someone else to do it, if they have not done these tanks before, you are wasting money for someone to learn.

If you'd like to use the van, for the rest of the season, just don't overfill it and you should be fine.
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flomulgator
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

The refresh/reseal kit that Van-Cafe sells comes with a bunch of worm clamps. Not saying it's the ideal solution, just the common one.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

I hate to admit I've had many whoe's with my tank. The roll over valves could be broken...snake a small plumbing camera up and see what it looks like. Replace the hose clamps with oetiker type clamps, the ABA Sweden clamps will loosen over time, this has been written up some place.

Is your tank pressurizing? Is it able to breathe/expand? Are the lines kinked to the carbon canister are the vents plugged with debris or mud wasps/spiders etc.

I don't have proof but I'm speculative of my trusted brand of fuel had to many additives and was making my tank gaskets fail premature. I'm now trying the no frills brand and observing. However you state two years and for my shit luck that's about the time mine fails also.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

Great info...thanks
I believe the Van Cafe kit was used on the restoration...

Doing this job myself is not an option. My hope/plan is to gather all the information and parts to set the local shop up for success. I have spoken with a local shop that has worked on the van before. With the right info/support I hope to avoid a costly learning curve.
I doubt that any of the lines are blocked with debris, all parts were new two years ago and I strongly suspect that the issue/breakage occurred when the tank was initially re-installed. Of course I cant prove this.
Which brings me to my next question...
Once the tank is re-re-installed would a pressure test of some kind be a good idea/possible to confirm that all is well? I'm not sure this is possible but I really want to avoid a re-occurrence.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

You could do a smoke test, by removing the smaller hose at the top of the charcoal cannister. Connect the smoke tester to that hose. Any smoke coming out above the tank would indicate there is a leak in the evap system. Problem is you need to remove the tank again to fix the leak. It's a pretty simple layout and if the valves are oriented in the correct direction, you should be able to install the tank without disturbing the vent lines or valves.

No doubt about it, it is a suck job. I made sure to use the Oetiker clamps and gates barrier hose on the tank I just installed. I'd rather not do it again. As I said earlier, looking at the filler design, do not neck fill a syncro. Doing so, will submerge the vent valves and grommets in fuel while you burn the excess fuel off.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

This post got me to thinking, so while I am building my syncro, I checked the clearance at the top of the fuel tank between the roll over valves and the floor of the van this morning. There is enough clearance to slide a metal ruler between the valves and the floor of the van. I made sure my oetiker clamp high spots were at 3 and 9 o'clock for clearance as well.

I got to thinking about what sets that clearance. On both syncro tanks was a piece of german carpet material. It holds dirt and moisture big time added to the valley in the top of the tank. I decided there must be a better way and purchased a 10 foot roll of 2 inch by 1/8 inch neoprene. I used 3 m weather strip adhesive to bond it to the valley in the tank.

From what I can tell, that is what sets the clearance between the floor and the tank. If the old peice of carpet was removed, or even reused, I suppose it is possible to shove the vent valves against the floor. I liked the idea of neoprene because it should not retain moisture and dirt. There is a cross brace that seats on that section of the tank and the syncro brace was starting to rust. Hope that helps some.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

Hmmm
Interesting point (about the "carpet" on top of the tank).
I believe that during the restoration/reinstall of the tank the heat shield was not used, my impression is that the tank was basically bare...I will see if the guy who did the work recalls. And I've been circling around a scope, maybe with one of those I could see whats going on there.
Either way I think I will put some kind of (closed cell foam?) mat on top of the tank this time around.
I have been driving the van. It is not leaking. Obviously I need to get it repaired in the event of a roll over. But it is hard to swallow the idea of thousands more $$$ and the downtime. This van is a semi-daily driver and most weekends we spend in it.
Again, many thanks for all the info.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Another syncro Fuel tank saga Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apologies for the upside down pics...would not save correctly.
This is a new old stock syncro tank from Mecatechnic. France.
I'm 90% sure its the right tank. Wonder-what the SAMBULATOR thinks.

Markings on tank -
251 201 075 AB
251 201 075 AA
251 201 075 B
251 201 075 D

I'll slowly build up the tank for eventual install.
OR...
I'll trade the new petrol tank for a awd tesla transplant install on my van...
anyone...
anyone...
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