Gas/LP Heater output sizes (Espar / Propex / Webasto)

[shagginwagon83]

Winter is coming, and I'm looking at some gasoline heater. Not really wanting propane but let this thread be more on the topic of heater output sizes.
No "insulate the person rather than buying an expensive heater" kinda stuff.

I know a lot of people here go with the Espar/eberspacher B4 and love it.

Heater (low / medium / high / boost) (BTUs)

Espar B4 (4KW) (4.4K, 7.1, 10.9K, 13K)
Espar B5 (5.5KW) (4.1K, 9.2K, 16.4K, 18.8K)
Propex HS2211 (2kW) -(6500 btu output)

I don't see much info on the B5. Its $200 more than the B4. What are the con's of picking up a bigger heater than you need? Something to do with carbon buildup?
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan

[DanHoug]

what temps define your winter and will you be using the van for camping at these temps?

as a point of reference, tho not apples to apples as the Mr Heater Buddy is *radiant* heat vs convective, but 9,000 BTUs of heat from the Buddy is more than enough heat in a Westy with the top popped in 20F-ish temps and above. we'll start on the 9K setting and then go down to the 4K setting once things are warm. a little 120v cube heater is 5,200BTU *convective* for further reference and that does NOT seem to be enough in 20F temps to quickly warm the interior with the top up, tho it will eventually.

low heat output vs higher will give longer run times between cycles, and tend to have more even heat as a result. it also uses more battery for fans, etc.

for me, a major question is how long you expect the heater to run on battery power and what means you have to supply that juice. it'll take a pretty beefy AUX batt setup to run the heater more than one night without recharging. if you expect to be plugged into shore power, then i'd just go with 1 or 2 cube heaters and call it good.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[dkoesyncro]

I got a first hand experience this last weekend end of pros and cons!
My van; gasoline with a indoor safe "Mr.Heater" our friends van; diesel with espar!

In the Mountains of Idaho 6° lows and 60° high and about 7,000 ft elevation, the espar ran 10 times to maintain 60° minimum at night! My Mr.Heater never would stay running long enough without freezing the tanks!

The propane is a wet heat, we had ice on the interior of the van from our propane fiasco! The espar cozy and dry!

I would not suggest propane based on moisture accumulation alone. The gasoline version of the types I've heard webasto has this technology well thought out. Espar for the diesel.

[shagginwagon83]

Yeah the moisture the Heater Buddy produces is the deal breaker for me. I try not to use it unless I have to.

Not sure about the temperatures I'd be facing. However I think the coldest I would want to camp would be around 10-20'F

As far as the aux battery is concerned - I don't plan to be really in one spot for more than 48 hours. If I need some aux battery charging, I'll let the engine idle.

I have not found out the dimensions of the heaters, but I think I would want the B5 heater. I would want the van to heat up ASAP from very cold.

However, it really depends on how much bigger the size is (and where I will put it in the Westy).
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan

[DanHoug]

dkoesyncro - do you know what AH AUX battery the other van had?

that's a great point about the water vapor. 6F would be a game changer. at mid-20F, i could leave some of the pop top screen open as well as side windows and didn't really have any moisture issues. but it was off at night!

my Buddy can run on high heat without frosting the propane cylinders, at least inside the warm van, but i'm at 1500'. is that the altitude that makes them get colder when vapor is drawn off?
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[danfromsyr]

IMO ANY AUxillary furnace installation requires a 2nd battery..
you are both running it when it's cold outside and that impacts the effective life of a battery also.

my buddy and I both have propex HS2800 the green ones.. about ~9k btu. ~92% efficient

my other 2 buddies have suburban propane furnaces 12~16k btu.. 70% efficient

we have a Espar D1 2Kw ~6k btu in mom's camper (she doesn't camp in fall/winter)

I'm comfortable at most any outside temps with the 9k Propex with the top popped..

I run the heat if I'm sitting in the open doorway..(some friends refuse to 'waste' heat) for a comfy warm breeze on my back.

feel free to PM me if you have specific questions or I'll try to keep up on this thread too.
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[shagginwagon83]

[danfromsyr]

I agree that a single source is in my next consideration.

do note that if you are shopping the market that many state Petrol. but that means fuel not gasoline.. and is usually Diesel.


few on the market are listed with Benzine/Gasoline.

and you want more than ~6k BTUs..

but then the practical science in build/design comes into play..

I like a bigger heater that runs less..
but some of these cost more watts/amps for the start/restart circuit.

so a smaller maybe more efficient in electricity over time than a larger..
but that takes some 'consumer reports' style lab work to verify.

and the last issue with single source is those times when you inadvertently arrive low on gas.. and may worry and fret all night you won't have enough to get to XYZ station to top off.. so sure you throw in a 2-3 gal gas can..
but now you may as well be carrying propane.. you can have a 'extend a stay' connection for your small on board tank to couple in a 10~20# bottle for long/cold trips.

analysis paralysis ensues and you just buy warmer blankets.
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[shagginwagon83]

B4 Espar.
At low 4.4k BTU, it uses ~.05 gallon/hour and .8 amps/hour
At medium 7.2k BTU, it uses ~.08 gallon/hour and 1.3 amps/hour
At High 10.9K BTU, it uses ~.12 gallon/hour and 2.4 amps/hour

B5 Espar.
At low 4.1k BTU, it uses ~.07 gallon/hour and 1.25 amps/hour
At medium 9.2k BTU, it uses ~.1 gallon/hour and 2.5 amps/hour
At High 16.4K BTU, it uses ~.17 gallon/hour and 6.67 amps/hour

I don't think I need the B5. I don't like the consumption rates at all.

How do these heaters work? I mean I imagine you have a thermostat. You set it at 70'F. When it drops down to 65'F does it kick on low to get back up to 70'F? Or does it kick on high and shut off sooner?
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan

[danfromsyr]

$2,ooo holy crap.. no wonder your trying to cut out the necessary $100 Aux battery,

but they all 'may' work slightly differently as revisions are made through the years..

I have a $300 chinese clone (5Kw diesel) that I'll add to my 71 Bay with a small 2-3 gal underbody (kerosene) fuel tank..

it Idles down to low.. then goes off.. and then fires back up..
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[SyncroChrick]

Since we are on this topic...my Canadian Syncro came with a Webasto heater connected to the coolant system.

This was a long time ago, but I don't believe it was strong enough to heat the van itself for winter camping.

I still have the heater but unfortunately not the dash controller.

[dkoesyncro]

[davevickery]

[fxr]

A timely thread, as we're thinking of getting a gasoline heater as the Mr Buddy just won't work when we're at altitude (where of course it's COLD). The Espar B4 with altitude kit seems the ideal answer - but wow, what a price...
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[shagginwagon83]

[SSWesty]

The B4 looks like a solid choice. I have a Propex 2000 and I think the output is about 6,500btus. It's plenty of heat for us doing 3 season camping in the Northwest. Typically we are out and about so we are not sitting in our Westy all day needing heat. We use heat to warm up the place in the evening and to keep us warm through the night. In the morning it's nice to crank up the thermostat to get it comfy inside. I'll define "comfy" as being comfortable in a tee-shirt. We have winter camped in weather down to the mid-teens and it keeps us toasty at night with the top down. I think it would run a lot with the top up at those temps because you lose so much heat through the tent. I could see having more BTUs when the temps are in the teens and 20s to get it toasty with the top up. I'll say our propex is "enough" but having some extra BTUs would be nice for cold temps and the top up. With the top down the B4 medium setting should be fine if not too much. With the three output ranges on the B4 I could see using High and Medium for the colder outings and Medium and Low for more moderate temps. I bet you'd use Medium and Low the most. High seems like it would cook you out unless you keep the top up in freezing temps.

[SSWesty]

For what it's worth I mocked up a "runtime" profile of how much I think our heater may run when camping in the low 30s with the top down when sleeping.

This is a scenario of us being done outside and have retreated to inside the van for the night at 6:00pm. We cook inside so that also generates some heat in the evening and mornings. At 10:00 it's bedtime so temp is lowered and the furnace doesn't run for an hour. At the crack of 8:00 it's time get moving so temps go up for a bit then we're off to the adventure of the day. This bakes in some time to read in bed before cranking the temps up.

I calculated the amps used per hour by the 1.3 and 1.7 draw rates. The columns did not paste well for me so they are:
-Time of day
-Runtime minutes
-Amps @ 1.3 draw
-Amps @ 1.7 draw

Time Runtime 1.3 1.7
6:00 PM 20 0.43 0.57
7:00 PM 20 0.43 0.57
8:00 PM 20 0.43 0.57
9:00 PM 20 0.43 0.57
10:00 PM 0 0.00 0.00
11:00 PM 10 0.22 0.28
12:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
1:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
2:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
3:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
4:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
5:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
6:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
7:00 AM 10 0.22 0.28
8:00 AM 20 0.43 0.57

AMP Draw 4.11 5.37

So for this scenario we're looking at a 1.26 amp draw difference. Doubling the run times with this scenario would up the AMP draw difference(1.3 vs. 1.7) to 2.5amps. In theory a couple amps either way shouldn't be a deal breaker. I hope this helps.

[davevickery]