New 411 owner

[scirocco81]

Hello all!

Its been many years since I have posted on the samba. My VW journey has been watercooled for the past several years!
I've always had and old VW, currently own 1 1984 Rabbit GTI, a 1991 GTI, and a 1995 Cabrio.

Well today I picked up a 1972 411 sedan. Last on the road in 2002, in a garage since.
I am hoping to get it running and driving and back on the road. The rust appears to be mostly superficial, as in no structural rust that I have seen so far. I did get a change to look at it on a lift, looks grungy but nothing to make me feel like it wasnt solid enough to try and rescue from being parted or crushed.

First on the list is getting a new ignition lock installed so I can turn the wheels. The guy I bought it off of had already attempted to get it running but said it had no spark. I dont know how hard he tried, but I will start fresh and see where it leads.

I work at a VW shop, I grew up with VWs, my dad was also a VW/Porsche/Audi tech for nearly 4 decades. I'd like to think I know what to do to get this old girl back on the road but I am sure there will be many question along the way. I will admit to some slight buyers remorse/apprehension as I sat for 3.5 hours today waiting on a tow truck, but I think this car deserves another shot at life.

Here are some pics!

[raygreenwood]

Wow!....nice condition. You will have some rust issues....visible....at the rear fender arches....but it can be fixed. Cleaning the rust out and stopping it is paramount....as the area where that rust is is not a replacement part.

The engine looks VERY complete. Please....please....do not get rid of the 1.7L engine....beast of the bunch.....and do NOT get rid of the D-jet injection. We can help.

Also.....if you notice the empty brake reservoir....you need brake work.....and....really.....at this age you need ro go through the front suspension. Its shot.

First order of business on the front end is preserving the ball joints. They are no longer available. I will list part numbers for available boots in the next day or so. You need to cut gaskets for between the joints and steering knuckles and install a grease fitting. With new boots and these mods...decent ball joints last for ages.

Start a thread and we can help. Ray

[jlrftype7]

love it, really nice strong Green for it.
Have a great time with it.
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[Lars S]

Welcome scirocco81!
Nice find, looks not being wrenched to much...will be intresting to follow!


/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[scirocco81]

Thanks for the welcome!

To your points Ray.....

Once I can get it on a lift I will address what ares of rust require the most attention and work backwards from there. What do you recommend using to treat the rust?

I have zero plans to change the engine or the injection. First order of business is to get the engine running and well...... see how healthy it is. I ordered all new ignition tune up parts today along with a new fuel pump and fuel filter. I am hoping that and some tinkering will get the engine running well. I removed the large air duct today and was wowed by the original Bosch label still on the coil, the valve adjustment sticker on the left side is still there! I removed the distributor to inspect it. It appears the vacuum advance no longer works.

I plan on going over the brakes once the drivetrain is up and running.

Same with the suspension, this old girl is really sitting high in the front end.... or low in the rear depending on how you look at it! I am hoping to level it out!
Are front end parts available other than the ball joint? I'd love any tips and tricks on saving a NLA part! It may be a few months before I get to that point.

The "frunk" release lever is really hard to pull on, it had completely fallen off the glove box before I saw it. I lubed the release latch and it seems to move freely when open, by man I really gotta pull on that lever to get it to pop. And tips and tricks on how to fee this up?


Here is a pic of what appears to be an untouched spare tire from 1972 and I couple of goodies I found inside the frunk........

[raygreenwood]

The tire notes 155 70 r15.....yep....skinny tire. But.....its on a chrome rim. It looks like all of your rims are chrome. Most likely aftermarket....but if the spare is a 155.....likely 4.5" stock size rims. But inspect them anyway.

Most people who drove these......mean included....rapidly moved to a 185" tire. Makkof improvement and as large as you can go on 4.5s.

Mine has 5.5" rims. I would never go back. For ages....I ran 205 60-15 for much better handling. Coming up....I think I may move back down to 195 60 15. Easier to get, correct on the speedo drive and ....well....my golf does well enough on them.

The rust under on the rear fender arch. Very difficult. The rear fender removes with bolts. The rust will be in the lip of the quarter panel. It is hollow double eall and filled with foam. Scrape it out,with a pick. Grind away tbe rust......and this is where I am,going with mine.

1. Do NOT use bondo.
2. Once you get the rust ground out you will have a hole. Probably through both inner and outer panel. Use picks and a dremel to get all of the foam and rust you can,reach.

3. Then use one of two products. Jasco prep and prime or Rust bullet. Both are very strong phosphoric acid and/or ....cant remember the other one.....but use them straight from the bottle FIRST.

This will dissolve rust. Brush on, work in, wipe up, repeat. Then rinse well. Then dry.
Then let it surface for a few days. To do what is next it needs the thin surface rust.

Dilute Jasco with 2 parts water....follow directions on the bottle. Brush on, wipe up drips. FO NOT rinse. Dry for 24 hours. The rust will have been converted to iron phosphate.

4. This is what I am,doing with holes like this. Do not try to cut and weld in. Most of the fender and inner wall sections of the fenders on these cars are VERY THIN. Purely cosmetic.

Anything short of TIG welding will be an excercise is frilustrayion and wider damage.
Cut a basic metal plate larger the hole in one dimension that you can,slip into the hole. Tack weld it in 2-3 spots. Just make a backing plate.

Then buy some of Eastwoods lead free body solder. Low melt temp....like 450°F.
Practice, work it in....seal it up....and then sand and paint.

There is littel available for the front end. You can probably get strut bushings...you will need them, tie rod ends and idler bushing.

The front end is naturally high. Its a flaw in the design. Since you cannot buy strut catridges....do the audi strut mod. It gives you a replaceable cartridge with ahout 200% better handling, a level ride, is pretty cheap.

Also you CAN buy new center links....yours is shot. They all are. I have a how to for rebuilding your own.....about $25 and better thab factory

I will post some links in the am. Ray

[scirocco81]

Thanks Ray!

Any tips for freeing up the front trunk release cable?


I did the ignition tune up today. Cap, rotor, points, condenser, plugs. I also replaced the ignition switch and lock cylinder. I installed a new battery. Turned it over by hand a few times and then cranked it over. The engine sounds very healthy when cranking. We sprayed a little carb clearer down the intake and she briefly fired to life, this old girl want to live!

I will have a new fuel pump tomorrow but I need to go over the fuel system make sure all the lines are in good shape. This will probably have to wait until late next week. I did see there is a drain plug in the tank, I am not sure if thats a can of worms I want to open..........

[KTPhil]

On the Type 3, some have suggested dripping ATF down those sheathed cables, but beware where it will come out at the other end, or leak from any cracks in the sheath along the way. I presume this one works similarly.

[raygreenwood]

[scirocco81]

Thanks! I will give this a go!

[scirocco81]

Well I was able to work on the car for a bit today.

Drained the fuel tank, not much in there, but what did come out stripped the paint off the subframe! Stuck the bore scope up in there and the tank wasnt anywhere near as bad as I feared.

I am replacing all the rubber fuel lines, I dont trust any of them.

Went with the Airtex 2000 fuel pump, well the Delphi equivalent my local FLAPS had in stock (most likely the exact same unit as it came exactly as the Airtex pump is pictured) The front end is plumbed, new fuel filter, all new lines, and naturally a new pump.

A big thanks to Ray and forum members for the in-depth discussions on how to replace and replumb the system with the single outlet pump


I am guessing late next week before I get a chance to do the rear.

[Rome]

'rocco, did the original fuel pump work at all once you removed it from the car? If not, try reversing the polarity- power to the neg. terminal and grounding the + terminal. You are trying to reverse-shock/jolt the armature so that the pump runs again against any cloggings or old gas varnish. If this is successful, chances are that the pump will run again with the correct polarity connections. I saw this method work on a seemingly stuck/inoperative type 3 high pressure original pump at the 2004 Type 3 Invasion in Hershey PA. Car was a barn find, towed to the meet, and not running. After the pump "jolting" and correct reconnecting to the wiring harness, the engine ran! There were a few Type 3 fuel injection experts present to head the effort.

All rims look like 5.5" wide chromies to me due to the significant "deep dish" effect.

Ray- do you think the front bumper overriders were installed upside-down? On the rears, the larger height of the overriders are above the bumper blade. I'd imagine the fronts should be oriented the same way. Just swap side to side so that the overriders' back edges follow the bumper contour.

When fitting the Audi struts, what if the OP cuts a loop out of the original springs to get the nose down slightly? Or do you know if springs from another MacPherson VW model are slightly shorter than 411 springs and would fit, so he keeps the integrity and spring rate but just has a lower nose?

[titan3c]

Did anyone notice the rear tail light lenses? I've never seen that type of lense, and trim. I like it. Bob

[titan3c]

OK I looked again. What I was seeing on the tail light lense was the backup light part. It looked like chrome to me. Excuse me for thinking I saw something different. Bob

[scirocco81]

Hello rome! I did not try to resuscitate the original fuel pump. Even if I was able to get it to work, not sure I would trust it much and for $60 a new pump is cheap insurance. I still have the original pump and can give your suggestion a try!

The wheels are 5.5 inches wide, so I will be running the 195-60 tire as recommended by Ray.

I have installed the fuel pump, replaced nearly all the rubber fuel lines. Today I tried to get it to start and initially had no luck. After a little troubleshooting I found none of the injectors were working, not even clicking. Talked to a guy with a lot of experience with Type 4 engines and he recommended pulling the injectors and putting power to them reversing polarity back and forth to see if they would start clicking. Pulled 2 and sure enough after some fiddling they both started clicking. Reinstalled them and turned the key and she ran! Well it ran for all of a minute until the fuel line from the return side to the pressure regulator in the engine bay blew and sprayed fuel everywhere......... I missed that one, and I was right not to trust the fuel lines as in my previous post.


Tomorrow I will remove the other 2 injectors and see if the click, replace the last fuel hose and go from there. It SHOULD run after that, how well it runs is another question!

Look for another update soon!

[raygreenwood]

[scirocco81]

It runs! It runs better than it has any right to really. So excited to hear this car roar back to life!

I bought a 5 meter roll of Continental fuel line, I have maybe 2 feet left, all the rubber fuel lines are new now. Every. Single. One. I even cut the ends off the injectors are replaced those hoses as 2 of them were leaking. I couldnt get the lower injector seals today, but I will replace them.

It goes into reverse and drive! My second fear was that the trans was bad. I wont know for sure until I can drive it more than 20 feet but it was a relief.

Naturally the front calipers locked up as soon as the brakes were applied, I expected this, the car will get new brakes. Does the 411 use the same caliper as the 914 and Type 3? I got some conflicting part numbers looking them up.
I plan on putting reman calipers on now but not replacing the pads and rotors until its ready to drive. No point in new rotors and letting it sit all winter, they'll just rot. I just want the car to be able to move around in the small lot at the shop.

It also appears I will need a ball joint. If anyone reading this can help me out please let me know. I did some reading on older posts, I will do some more.

I snapped a few more pics while it was up in the air, the bottom of this car is solid as could be.

I took an old used 195-65-15 tire out of the pile out back because I had one that would go flat in 20 minutes. The ride height really evened out, looks pretty good!

[Lars S]

Congrats to have it running! One big step!

From memory:
Calipers are the same as for the same year model of 914 (4 cyl version) .
Calipers were changed from -73 model of 412 and 914 so get the early 914 type.
Also late (70?-73) Type3 calipers are the same as early 914 ones.

Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[raygreenwood]

Yes.....what Lars said is correvt.

And.....do not discard or trade in your old ones. In fact.....I would contact PMB performance and buy their 914 caliper kits. They come complete with the caliper half o-rings and are very cheap...about $18 per kit to do 2 calipers. Read my caliper overhaul thread.

http://m.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/1925563/4747234.htm

Good work!
Ray

[scirocco81]

Well it looks like reman calipers aren't available from anyone so I ordered the rebuild kits and I will try to track down 4 pistons. Ordered 2, but want to see what happens after those ship I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of sites are showing the same pair in stock since they list them as "2 remaining".

Ray I looked over your caliper thread, will read it over again when I start this. Have never rebuilt a caliper before, so it will be interesting!