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djfordmanjack
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2009
Posts: 2171
Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
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 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotty wrote: |
I will admit from the side they look to be very similar, but you'll only know for sure when you look in plan view.
Now I don't know if a barndoor is set up like this or not, but just speaking from my experience of running late spindles on a barndoor with barndoor steering is that it got messed up.
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I think it's not that much of a problem ! see as first the wheelbase of a bus is the same as on a bug ( 2400mm) and more important the idler arm of the front axle ( the lever converting the draglink steering to the tie rods) is in more or less the same position as on a bug, means closer to the drivers side. ( compared to a later bus having this idler arm in central position) means the short driversside tierod connects to a similar point of geometry on BD bus and bug.
maybe if you use later bus spindles connecting tierods to the offset idler arm on a BD beam, this could give you the trouble you found  
i do not know for spindle/kingpin inclination and or camber/caster difference in the late to early bus spindles, but I know that early bug spindles are damn close to the BD setup for sure, except for a 5" drop or so  |
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streetwagens
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2005
Posts: 475
Location: Wales, GB
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Just for reference, ball joint bug tubes are 10mm further apart than barndoor tubes.
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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HOLY CRAP!!!  I accidentally clicked on the BD forum and saw this thread, too cool!
Will this only work on pre 55 beams or can a similar conversion work on a 55-63 beam as well? I have an early 63 with the expensive as hell brakes and link pins (im afraid to even look for the king pin sets) and this would keep my bus running safely and not trash it in the process.
Thanks |
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GERMANAIRE
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2007
Posts: 688
Location: BUFORD,GA.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: spindals |
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| Hello, I am building a 65 walkthru and wanted to know if this set up would work on my bus. Can I use 65 beetle disk Brake spindles also. Thanks, Peter |
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BeaterBarndoor
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2000
Posts: 824
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
HOLY CRAP!!! I accidentally clicked on the BD forum and saw this thread, too cool!
Will this only work on pre 55 beams or can a similar conversion work on a 55-63 beam as well? I have an early 63 with the expensive as hell brakes and link pins (im afraid to even look for the king pin sets) and this would keep my bus running safely and not trash it in the process.
Thanks |
i would imagine you could run this set up on 55-63 but it would have to be modified for the tierods to be mounted to the spindle.the tie rod arm off the spindle sits high like barndoor where the arm for 55-63 bus sits low.you would have to cut and weld(or adapt it but im wondering if the arm is left where it is,it may tend to hit the frame rails on turns.something to keep an eye on) that arm to drop it down in the correct position for later bus for it to track correctly in the front. same idea that i had to deal with when i had 63 spindles on my BD. i had to make an adaptor to reposition the tierod arm in order to track properly.
im not so sure that this would work for 64-67 though as the link pin is larger and may not leave enough "meat" in the spindle . having never done this method yet, i dont really know.
the best way to avoid those expensive 55-63 brakes is to have a set of "63 only" spindles built. a half year only spindle that uses early 20mm link pins and just as they changed to later "cheap" brakes. this is what i used to adapt to my BD when i installed the late bus spindles.
hope that helps understand some.
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: |
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can it physically be done? yes. Will it perform well? no. Like discussed, the beam tube spacing is different from barndoors to non barndoors, and from beetles to buses. putting linkpin beetle spindles on a non barndoor beam would be the furthest mismatch of the possible combo's.
depending on what your ride height is, it may track and handle alright, but its when the suspension is deflected or extended that you run into issues of castor change. You have to look at the torsion arms as a parallelogram, if they are not parallel then the non-fixed end (spindle) is going to change in angle. How radically depends on how far 'out of wack' the parallelogram is. Ideally you would set the castor in the beam itself (bottom tube forward of the top tube slightly) and have the torsion arms perfectly parallel.
then you have the issue of the steering arm as Mark covered above.
lastly, ackerman angle is an important consideration, you would need to modify the steering arms on the beetle spindles to be correct.
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BeaterBarndoor
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Joined: December 15, 2000
Posts: 824
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
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maybe i am missing something here ,and if i recall correctly, yes beetle beams are different in tube distance. I dont have anything but my own beam on my bus currently to compare anything but after a quick gander at trail arm/spindle combos, it doesnt seem all that far off visually throughout.
stock barndoor set up
stock post BD
BD running 63 dropped spindles(doesnt appear to have any change in arm angle)
BD running beetle linkpin(no visual angle change)
BD running balljoint beetle(definate arm angle change)
i have drivin thousands of miles on both the BD with 63 spindles as well as the BD with BJ beetle spindles and i have never found either to be squirrelly or have any abnormal tire wearing. in fact with the BJ spindles,being the most extreme change in angle of all the above, i have to note that my tires have perfect wear still and i probably have close to 10k miles on them. no "intentional" caster changes but my bus is lowered,possibly enough to escape any issues? it drives great for me.
just by the photos of running 63 spindles on a BD beam, i would say there is little to no real difference in the tube spacing from BD to late beams. but from memory, there is definately a difference from bus to beetle.but those link pin beetle spindles sure look pretty uniform.
i only speak from my experiences. i cant vouch for the technical writings ,which would all make sense in theory.
without having each style beam in front of me ,i cant voice anything else other than what i have run on BD.
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Hebster52
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Joined: March 14, 2003
Posts: 1771
Location: Finland, Jakobstad
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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I quote myself with some facts about the two beams/spindles:
(From this thread)
| Hebster52 wrote: |
I have now compared Type-1 spindles with my barndoor spindles:
Linkpin c-c measurement:
Type-1 spindles, 132mm
BD spindles, 138mm
Beam tube c-c measurements so far:
Type-1, 120mm
Barndoor, appr. 139mm
Difference on linkpin distance is then 6mm and torsionbar pivotpoint distance is 29mm...
Strange geometry on the type-1.... Not parallell as stock either...?
The Barndoor seems to be parallell though.. |
I've done this comparison because I'm doing the opposite and will fit Barndoor spindles to my -51 split bug.
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Scotty
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2003
Posts: 1531
Location: Northampton - Uk
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| sled wrote: |
| Like discussed, the beam tube spacing is different from barndoors to non barndoors |
I'm pretty sure they're the same
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| EverettB wrote: |
I'd be curious to know the length of his tip.
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http://scottys-stuff.blogspot.com/ |
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Hebster52
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Joined: March 14, 2003
Posts: 1771
Location: Finland, Jakobstad
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Scotty
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2003
Posts: 1531
Location: Northampton - Uk
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me exactly how much narrower bug k&l spindles are than bus 64-67 spindles?
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| EverettB wrote: |
I'd be curious to know the length of his tip.
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http://scottys-stuff.blogspot.com/ |
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EmpiGT
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 2597
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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| I don't have any early bug link pin beams handy to look at. But someone here probably knows. Can t-1 trailing arms fit onto a barndoor beam. So not having to machine anything to use t-1 spindles? That seems too eazy, but to me looks like it can be done. Are the springs bigger in a barndoor beam? |
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mr. warehouse
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2001
Posts: 5001
Location: Nor Cal 707
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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| EmpiGT wrote: |
| I don't have any early bug link pin beams handy to look at. But someone here probably knows. Can t-1 trailing arms fit onto a barndoor beam. So not having to machine anything to use t-1 spindles? That seems too eazy, but to me looks like it can be done. Are the springs bigger in a barndoor beam? |
T1 arms will not fit into a BD beam
Here's the way I did it.
Early bus link pins with the heads turned down to fit in side the T1 carriers.
Needle bearing bushings turned down to also fit into the T1 carriers
Spacers made to fill the gap.
Not shown are the T1 sims I opened up the ID to use on the bus link pins.
No need to machine the carriers going this route
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EmpiGT
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 2597
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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Thanks Greg,
I just got a spare barndoor beam missing the tailing arms out. Was hoping I could do something with type 1's. Guess I'll be on the hund for another set of barndoor arms. Thanks for the info on the spindles. |
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Rusting Hulk
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Joined: August 20, 2002
Posts: 646
Location: Malvern UK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Busfarmer wrote: |
Made a collar for the other side.
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Can anyone help with the size of this spacer? From memory its 7mm thick, but i can't find it posted anywhere.
Cheers
Simon
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Hellberg
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2013
Posts: 121
Location: sweden
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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7mm thick
outer diameter: 34mm
inner diameter: 20mm
this is what I have with beetle spindles, beetle bushings and barndoor linkpins
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Rusting Hulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2002
Posts: 646
Location: Malvern UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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Many thanks, just what I was looking for 
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mr. warehouse
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2001
Posts: 5001
Location: Nor Cal 707
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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edit to replace missing photo and add a photo of a set done with 356 spindles.
| mr. warehouse wrote: |
T1 arms will not fit into a BD beam
Here's the way I did it.
Early bus link pins with the heads turned down to fit inside the T1 carriers.
Needle bearing bushings turned down to also fit into the T1 carriers
Spacers made to fill the gap.
Not shown are the T1 sims I opened up the ID to use on the bus link pins.
No need to machine the carriers going this route
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Terry Gaudet 
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2004
Posts: 399
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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Thanks for posting the picture Mr. Warehouse. It helps me see the mods.
So these will fit on 55-63 bus front beam arms?
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1950 Beetle Standard
1955 Canadian Custom
1956 Kombi w/SO23 kit
1965 Kombi walkthrough
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Terry Gaudet
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Joined: March 11, 2004
Posts: 399
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Lowering with T-1 spindels. |
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Oh, and one more question. What is the overall width difference between the stock barndoor beam and a beetle k&l beam? I am also going to consider modifying an early beetle beam to fit barndoor chassis so I can use beetle spindles to mount my 356 brakes.
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Terry Gaudet
1950 Beetle Standard
1955 Canadian Custom
1956 Kombi w/SO23 kit
1965 Kombi walkthrough
1965 Double Cab |
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