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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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There are correct screws and there are correct screws. IMO the best screw has a hex washer head with a Philips X inside it, but since they are hard to find I use different heads in various location depending on access and what is behind them. In some places a hex washer head screws are a must in my opinion, while in other places I will mainly use Philips Cheesehead screws. The slotted screws are my least favorite. If you have to have your engine as per factory either slotted cheesehead screws or Philips cheesehead screws were used depending on the year of manufacture.
I do have a monster flat blade screw driver that is ideal for removing slotted screw.
I think your tin has been mutilated for some reason, though VW used all kinds of weird tins on these engines in various applications. Not sure I have ever seen a Zamboni tin but maybe that it is what you have and the gaps somehow fed heat to somewhere it was wanted, just a wild arse guess.
Last edited by Wildthings on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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I think the tin was cut, the edge in the top right corner (looking at it from the front of the bus) doesn't feel like a factory edge.
I'll see if I can source another one.
Unless people have a source for the correct or best tin screws, I'll just keep using these. _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:48 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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original screws for a type 4 are DIN 7985 'phillips head' 'cross recessed pan head machine screws' (modern term), or fillister head screws. 6 x 12.
shown several times in the factory microfiche, part number N014 139 5
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/LateBaywindow/011-00-1-026.jpg
they are easily sourced from a bolt/screw/hardware shop (not home depot/lowes/etc). a box of 100 cost me about $15. i also use 1/4" flat washers, to give more clamping surface area so you don't rip the openings in the tinwork.
while you might not think it's a big deal to use the type 1 (slotted) screws now, while the engine is out of the vehicle and you have good access all around the engine, when it's installed, and you might need to access a screw or three to adjust, replace, or tighten something, you'll find that a phillips head screw makes life a lot easier.
_________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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hazetguy wrote: |
original screws for a type 4 are DIN 7985 'phillips head' 'cross recessed pan head machine screws' (modern term), or fillister head screws. 6 x 12.
shown several times in the factory microfiche, part number N014 139 5
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/LateBaywindow/011-00-1-026.jpg
they are easily sourced from a bolt/screw/hardware shop (not home depot/lowes/etc). a box of 100 cost me $11. i also use 1/4" flat washers, to give more clamping surface area so you don't rip the openings in the tinwork.
while you might not think it's a big deal to use the type 1 (slotted) screws now, while the engine is out of the vehicle and you have good access all around the engine, when it's installed, and you might need to access a screw or three to adjust, replace, or tighten something, you'll find that a phillips head screw makes life a lot easier.
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Actually for the record ....those are BUS type 4. The 411 and 412....possibly the 914...dont know that for sure.....used the slotted cheese head screw. I have never thought they were hard to find. I used to buy them from metric and multistandard by the box.
But the 411/412 uses them for numerous things in the engine compartment except sheet metal. Not being a stock nazi.....but more of a functional person....I use 6mm hex head cap screws and non ribbed Schnoor washers for sheet metal and tbey no longer vibrate, wear tjrough or strip. Ray |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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well Ray, this is in the BUS forum, and the engines are going in /or are in a BUS, so go figure.
i've worked on a lot of these where slotted screws were used and cursed the previous owners/installers. like you, me being a practical/functional type person, i'll stick with the 'cross recessed pan head machine screws' (sitting here referencing my print copy of metric/multistandard catalog from way back when).
and i'd be willing to bet you're gonna blow most people's minds by suggesting using a Schnorr washer. my guess is that less than 1% of the people here even know their product offerings (without googling it). _________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:23 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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My parts book for the early Type 4 engines unequivocally shows that the screws were slotted cheesehead screws, the Philips head screws came later, but I don't know the year for sure, knowing VW they could have been phased in. Even the parts drawing linked to above mentions some cheesehead screws along with fillister head screws. Pan head screws have shorter head heights than either cheesehead or fillister head screws and don't show in the drawing as far as I can tell.
I have no problem with a philips pan head screw and use them if need be, but they were not used by VW to the best of my knowledge. |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Even the parts drawing linked to above mentions some cheesehead screws along with fillister head screws. |
i agree. the slotted cheesehead screws are shown for type 1 upright engine application, while the fillister/phillips/crossrecessed/whatever are specified for type 4 tin.
i don't know when or why they changed either. my wildly radical out there conjecture would be after they received "complaints" or "suggestions" from line mechanics or designers regarding accessibility on the 'front lines' of repairs.
AAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyway, OP: use whatever screws you want.
were it my engine (or one of my customers' engines), the slotted type/style would not be my first choice.
here's some reference information:
_________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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ivwshane wrote: |
On the block there is a large hole that exposes the flywheel, is that supposed to be covered?
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this is the plug you're looking for. they are kinda difficult to find. they are often mangled, melted, the tabs are broken off, or just plain missing (like yours).
i don't know if anyone is reproducing them. i couldn't find any in a quick google search.
_________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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Like I said, unless you guys have a good source for those screws, I'll stick with the slotted. Yes I prefer better over correct, in fact, I've spent probably $100 on hardware alone for better quality nuts and bolts for this refresh. I'm getting tired of all the researching I'm having to do to find bits and pieces here and there, mentally exhausted. _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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hazetguy Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001 Posts: 10773 Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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ivwshane wrote: |
Like I said, unless you guys have a good source for those screws... |
a quick google search found these places in sacramento:
https://www.u-neacfasteners.com/
http://www.bluecollar-supply.com/
http://www.supplystation.com/
ivwshane wrote: |
I'm getting tired of all the researching I'm having to do to find bits and pieces here and there.... |
better sell the bus now. doing that is a never ending process. _________________ thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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I didn't see anything at blue collar (but it was a fun place to visit).
I don't need to sell the bus, I need to make some real progress. I prefer to be driving it as it was intended:( _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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hazetguy wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Even the parts drawing linked to above mentions some cheesehead screws along with fillister head screws. |
i agree. the slotted cheesehead screws are shown for type 1 upright engine application, while the fillister/phillips/crossrecessed/whatever are specified for type 4 tin.
i don't know when or why they changed either. my wildly radical out there conjecture would be after they received "complaints" or "suggestions" from line mechanics or designers regarding accessibility on the 'front lines' of repairs.
AAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyway, OP: use whatever screws you want.
were it my engine (or one of my customers' engines), the slotted type/style would not be my first choice.
here's some reference information:
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From what I have seen...Im guessing,somehwere around the bus 1.8L the phillips screw started......1976-ish? Its a GREAT improvement over the slotted cheesehead.
I have just found it easier with the weird cooling boots on my vehicles and reaching some of the tin,screws....slotted or phillips....requires a "John holmes" size screwdriver and odd angles. The hex cap screws make it easier. Ray |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:02 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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I have a factory new 1800 sitting under wrap I will try to remember to take some pictures of the screws. |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:00 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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busdaddy wrote: |
All type 4 tin has that dipstick hole, it's a carryover from the sedan.
1st pic is alternator harness.
2nd pic is throttle cable, grommet is NLA AFAIK.
3rd is brake vacuum line (I think)
4th is plug wire clip
5th is dipstick (not used on bus), screw for lower deflector and thermo cable
Looking good in there |
Anyone have a part number for #3, that grommet for a vacuum line? I'm also having trouble finding the grommet for the alternator harness. All the ones I come across are for earlier buses and they are too big for the hole. _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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Here is a picture of the unrun factory engine and it has the philips cheese head screws. Don't know the date of manufacture, but it is supposed to be an 1800. I can attest to it having very shallow dishes in the pistons as per an 1800.
A trip to my local hardware store showed that they had what they where describing as Cheese/Pan head screws and just Pan head screws. The Cheese/Pan head screws were very similar to what VW used while the Pan head screws had significantly smaller but similarly shaped heads. |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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ivwshane wrote: |
busdaddy wrote: |
All type 4 tin has that dipstick hole, it's a carryover from the sedan.
1st pic is alternator harness.
2nd pic is throttle cable, grommet is NLA AFAIK.
3rd is brake vacuum line (I think)
4th is plug wire clip
5th is dipstick (not used on bus), screw for lower deflector and thermo cable
Looking good in there |
Anyone have a part number for #3, that grommet for a vacuum line? I'm also having trouble finding the grommet for the alternator harness. All the ones I come across are for earlier buses and they are too big for the hole. |
I found it. Its actually a grommet for an 8mm fuel line, part #111127591A
#6 on this diagram
However that leads to a new problem for me. In the above picture, it appears that the fuel rail is a hardline that goes through the firewall as well as along the rear of the engine. My lines are rubber. Does that mean my lines have been cut or that I'm using a non stock part?
Does this look right?
_________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab
Last edited by ivwshane on Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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I'll answer my own question: my fuel rail is correct for a 77 but on later years they upgraded to metal lines.
Do you guys think this is a good (safe) upgrade to go with the later fuel rail setup? It looks like I would need a new drivers side fuel rail and left and right rear hardlines as well.
Thank you bustedbus for helping me out!! _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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I'll see if I can find a better photo of the left one
http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/engine3.jpg _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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SGKent wrote: |
on a 1977 the left rail goes thru the tin. The right one goes to a hose to the fuel pressure regulator. That photo is not of a 1977 left side fuel rail. |
Well then that settles it, "upgrade" it is.
And it turns out I already had the 8mm grommet because it came with the German supply kit:D _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: What goes in these holes? |
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ivwshane wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
on a 1977 the left rail goes thru the tin. The right one goes to a hose to the fuel pressure regulator. That photo is not of a 1977 left side fuel rail. |
Well then that settles it, "upgrade" it is.
And it turns out I already had the 8mm grommet because it came with the German supply kit:D |
it might be a 1977 rail that is a little bent. I know that on mine it is hard to get the hose on because the rail is right near the tin. It might be that I am pulling the front side off. Let me look when I get home tonight. You will want to pull the plug out of that one and GLASS bead it then wash and hit it with compressed air to force out any scale or rust inside. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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