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Ill fitting hood
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mslibertarian
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

I bought this hood a couple of years ago and didn't check the fit before having it painted. Length and width are both too round. It has never been hit, the only thing I can think is that it is a repop and not original. This is the current thing that is driving me crazy about my car, I really want to get the front end sealed up tight.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

My beetle had the front clip replaced in a prior life and and the curvature of the hood to body is a bit off no matter which hood I put on there, repop or OG (although OG is a better fit). If I stuff the front full of camping equipment and force the hood closed on a pile of sleeping bags, the line between body and hood is perfect.

I have played with sliding it forward and back in the hood hinges a bit and was able to eliminate some of the awkwardness.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

mslibertarian wrote:
I bought this hood a couple of years ago and didn't check the fit before having it painted. Length and width are both too round. It has never been hit, the only thing I can think is that it is a repop and not original. This is the current thing that is driving me crazy about my car, I really want to get the front end sealed up tight.
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Those are kind of shitty pictures because we can only see some small parts from odd angles. Can you post some better ones which are less artistic? Like from the side - fully and level with the hood line, and from the front. Also one of the underneath of the hood and the hinges.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

I had an repo hood with similar issues. I was able to improve the gap by the windshield by setting the hood on the ground and carefully applying even pressure in the middle to get rid of some of the arch. This was before paint though.

Attempting the same technique to even out the side gaps would probably have very bad results.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

This pic is backed out a bit. I've never noticed until yesterday that the passenger side has the right contour, only the driver side is off. This leads me to believe that it is twisted somehow. I could probably do CPR on it to get the windshield gap close, but not without cracking the paint.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

I do have the original hood. It is just rusted and kinked one one side. I may just band aid the rust and go back to it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

mslibertarian wrote:
This pic is backed out a bit. I've never noticed until yesterday that the passenger side has the right contour, only the driver side is off. This leads me to believe that it is twisted somehow. I could probably do CPR on it to get the windshield gap close, but not without cracking the paint.
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I'd start by trying to get the 2 'corners' even at the window. The passenger side 'corner' is about 0.5 - 1cm too low and the hood should follow the contour on the body better here. Maybe it needs to be lifted a bit on the hinge and moved a reasonable fraction forward. This might let the nose forward and down a bit and in doing so even up the gap along the side. I can't see the drivers side. I'd say you could try by loosening the bolts holding the hood to the hinges and then stick solid spacers in at the corners to hold the gap while you wiggle things around a bit. Then when you have it looking as good as u can start to tighten things up
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

New lids have to 'fitted' to each car (OG or not). It is better done before anything is painted but can be done afterwards, with care. Hinge adjustments will only alter the forward/rear position and not cure the specific issues you have. To flatten out the curve where it meets the side panels, you have to open the lid (lock and handle removed), grab the front evenly with both hands and pull it sharply forward. Test it by closing the lid each time until the gap is gone. The rear edge is a similar process, but this time (lid open) grab the middle from underneath and pull sharply downward until it aligns properly. problem with this last one is that it will cause the rear corners of the lid to splay out. Then you have to get a flat piece of iron and a hammer and knock them back in. Now you see why this is better done before painting!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

looks like a 71/72 super, so likely not a repop. that being said, I had the same exact issues. I replaced the front apron and had that gap. the issue was resolved by first ensuring the gaps were set at the top followed by twisting the hood while bolted to hinges.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

PJMS wrote:
Hinge adjustments will only alter the forward/rear position


Not true. There's about 0.5cm up and down play in the hinge where it bolts to the hood. The holes are about 0.5cm greater in diameter than the bolts.

It's also possible to enlarge the holes for more even more play.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

Volks Wagen wrote:
PJMS wrote:
Hinge adjustments will only alter the forward/rear position

Not true.....

That extra tolerance for the bolts is not for vertical adjustments, just to make sure the bolts can go through. The curve on the hinge panel of the hood will often decide that movement anyway. Also, it really doesn't matter much because the hinges just pull the lid down as far as it can, which means it is the shape of the lid that determines how it fits, with the sole exception of the forward/backward movement, allowed by the elongated slots in the hinges themselves. For the same reason there is no point in filing the openings bigger, to allow additional vertical adjustments. All this is quite normal as no lids or doors ever fit the body automatically, from new, even on the original assembly line.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

PJMS wrote:
Volks Wagen wrote:
PJMS wrote:
Hinge adjustments will only alter the forward/rear position

Not true.....

That extra tolerance for the bolts is not for vertical adjustments, just to make sure the bolts can go through. The curve on the hinge panel of the hood will often decide that movement anyway. Also, it really doesn't matter much because the hinges just pull the lid down as far as it can, which means it is the shape of the lid that determines how it fits, with the sole exception of the forward/backward movement, allowed by the elongated slots in the hinges themselves. For the same reason there is no point in filing the openings bigger, to allow additional vertical adjustments. All this is quite normal as no lids or doors ever fit the body automatically, from new, even on the original assembly line.


How do you know that tolerance is not for vertical adjustments? I am simply pointing out to the OP that with the 0.5cm vertical play at the hinge bolts it is possible to raise or lower the hood at the hinges by approximately that amount.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

Volks Wagen wrote:
How do you know that tolerance is not for vertical adjustments? I am simply pointing out to the OP that with the 0.5cm vertical play at the hinge bolts it is possible to raise or lower the hood at the hinges by approximately that amount.

Well, you are right, it can be possible to raise the hood but it doesn't matter because the hinges would still pull the hood down until the body (or preferably the seal) stops it. What that tolerance will do is allow for a certain amount of 'tilt' front to back but that still won't change height of the lid at the rear end. I learned all this stuff from the workers on the production line in Mexico, so just want to pass on some of this info, as and when I can.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

PJMS wrote:
Volks Wagen wrote:
How do you know that tolerance is not for vertical adjustments? I am simply pointing out to the OP that with the 0.5cm vertical play at the hinge bolts it is possible to raise or lower the hood at the hinges by approximately that amount.

Well, you are right, it can be possible to raise the hood but it doesn't matter because the hinges would still pull the hood down until the body (or preferably the seal) stops it. What that tolerance will do is allow for a certain amount of 'tilt' front to back but that still won't change height of the lid at the rear end. I learned all this stuff from the workers on the production line in Mexico, so just want to pass on some of this info, as and when I can.


Ok. Well when I look at my hood, I can see that the hinges have a definite stop. Like they will not pull the hood down indefinitely. So I'm pretty sure that on my hood, which is on a 1303 (not the OP's 1302) that I could adjust the part nearest the cowel up and down that little bit. I noticed in the OPs build that the hood is up a bit near the cowel, but also that the corners are a bit tight to the body, that's why I was thinking that if it was let forward a bit and then lifted a bit at the back it might align the curve of the hood better with the curve of the body. Personally I'd try to align the hood as best as possible using the hinge bolts and the catch mechanism before trying to refit the hood by pulling it to reshape it. Sounds like the hoods on the Mexican bugs are perhaps a bit less sturdy than the older ones. Could this be true? I find it difficult to believe that a German production line would have hoods that were ill-fitting and required the type of manual fitment you describe. It's interesting to hear from your experience, and definitely an option. Hopefully all this will help the OP get the hood sorted.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

Take the latch mechanism off and put a towel or something on top of the apron so the hood and apron don't make direct contact. Then ,see if the hood will go down more before the corners at the hinge bind on the cowl.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

My hood fits the same, but I know there was body work done and the front apron has been worked a lot. Also I have new rubber across the top that seems to keep the hood from sitting lower.

It seems the further forward I mount the hood the lower it sits, but then the gap at the top is pretty big.

And as it is now I need to pull my trunk cable and grab it with vice-grips to open the trunk. It will not pop up when I pull it. I have tried adjusting the spring on the latch and it works even worse so I put it back. For right now I just keep vice-grips with me...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

Volks Wagen wrote:
….when I look at my hood, I can see that the hinges have a definite stop. Like they will not pull the hood down indefinitely....I noticed in the OPs build that the hood is up a bit near the cowel, but also that the corners are a bit tight to the body.....Personally I'd try to align the hood as best as possible using the hinge bolts and the catch mechanism before trying to refit the hood by pulling it to reshape it.....Sounds like the hoods on the Mexican bugs are perhaps a bit less sturdy than the older ones......I find it difficult to believe that a German production line would have hoods that were ill-fitting and required the type of manual fitment you describe.

I am going to try and address all the points above as best I can, but not in order. First, the VW Mexico body panels were as good as the German ones, in both specification of steel and fit. Once Germany had ceased production of the Type 1, they did not have to adhere to the stringent tolerance quality control that a production line requires. As their panel dies started to wear out (as they all do after a while), they switched to supply from the VW Mexico factory; if they were producing the relevant part. Though not 1302 or 1303, the standard Type 1 front lids from Mexico were not only better pressing but stronger too as they had and extra reinforcing strip all around the folded lip (sides and front).

The fitting process done at Mexico was the same as that done in Germany and is not an indication that the panels were pressed/assembled to a lower standard. They were all constructed to the proper specs but some, like the basic body shell and lids, sort of sprung into slightly distorted shapes, once complete. Then when they were put together they wouldn't fit exactly. However, because they were constructed properly, they knew that a few adjustments here and there would result in full alignment. The doors were the ones that needed the least 'massaging' because once you weld the inner shell to the outer, they were sort of locked. However, the door aperture in the body shell was other thing entirely and went through mind-shattering adjustments to allow the door to hang properly. All this work was done on the body shell line, before the shells went for cleaning and painting (that's why all the lid and door bolts were painted over from new).

As you point out, on the OP's car the lid sits high at the rear edge (in the middle of the cowl) and low at the corners. If you were to take the hood off and close the hinges, I am sure they would sit lower than is possible with the lid fitted. So if you were able to get the corners to sit up a little on the hinges, you would get either a larger gap in the middle or, as is more likely, the hinges would just pull it back down as far as it could, resulting in no difference. The problem here is that the hood has an excessive curve from rear corner to rear corner along the rear edge. If you reshape the lid so that the curve is flattened slightly, then the middle of the hood would sit down on the cowl seal (and actually seal). If you get the curve to match the curve of the cowl then the corners will not be able close as low as they are currently doing; the hinges are pulling but not by enough to bend the lid down at the corners.

This is all normal. However, as I mentioned before, it is best to do all this before painting because of the next bit: When you reshape the rear curve of the lid, it tends to make the rear corners of the lid splay out enough to both look annoying and reduce the sealing efficiency. This has to be fixed by sharp hammer strikes on the lower edge of the lid corners, with a flat piece of metal between (to prevent panel damage). if it is already painted, it is possible to crack or damage the paint. I have managed to do it to a painted car without damage, but this is more up to luck than anything else!

The excessive gap under the sides of the lid can be removed by pulling the lid, as previously described, and this and all other adjustments are done without the catch/lock installed. Once the lid appears to fit perfectly, in all respects, then fit the catch (or paint and fit the catch) and you are done. There is an actual measurement for the distance from the catch plate to handle mount on the lid so you don't have to trial fit the catch to see if it works (can't remember it at the moment). This is especially handy when the apron is new too and you want to rivet the lower catch after painting. Sometimes the sides of lid will overlap the side panels but this usually only happens when the side panels are new too. When this happens you have to used a soft hammer and bang the top of the side panels out until they line up - Don't expect the wings to pull the side panels into place when they are fitted.

Remember that these adjustment are for new panels. Fitting a used lid would probably not require any adjustments at all. Not sure if I have missed anything but if I have, or have not been clear, just ask and I will respond.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

I reinstalled my original hood today. The fit is definitely better. One thing I did notice is that I'm using a new type hood seal from Werksberg, it could be part of the problem. They're great on a standard, but I'm skeptical of it on a 1302.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

PJMS wrote:
Volks Wagen wrote:
….when I look at my hood, I can see that the hinges have a definite stop. Like they will not pull the hood down indefinitely....I noticed in the OPs build that the hood is up a bit near the cowel, but also that the corners are a bit tight to the body.....Personally I'd try to align the hood as best as possible using the hinge bolts and the catch mechanism before trying to refit the hood by pulling it to reshape it.....Sounds like the hoods on the Mexican bugs are perhaps a bit less sturdy than the older ones......I find it difficult to believe that a German production line would have hoods that were ill-fitting and required the type of manual fitment you describe.

I am going to try and address all the points above as best I can, but not in order. First, the VW Mexico body panels were as good as the German ones, in both specification of steel and fit. Once Germany had ceased production of the Type 1, they did not have to adhere to the stringent tolerance quality control that a production line requires. As their panel dies started to wear out (as they all do after a while), they switched to supply from the VW Mexico factory; if they were producing the relevant part. Though not 1302 or 1303, the standard Type 1 front lids from Mexico were not only better pressing but stronger too as they had and extra reinforcing strip all around the folded lip (sides and front).

The fitting process done at Mexico was the same as that done in Germany and is not an indication that the panels were pressed/assembled to a lower standard. They were all constructed to the proper specs but some, like the basic body shell and lids, sort of sprung into slightly distorted shapes, once complete. Then when they were put together they wouldn't fit exactly. However, because they were constructed properly, they knew that a few adjustments here and there would result in full alignment. The doors were the ones that needed the least 'massaging' because once you weld the inner shell to the outer, they were sort of locked. However, the door aperture in the body shell was other thing entirely and went through mind-shattering adjustments to allow the door to hang properly. All this work was done on the body shell line, before the shells went for cleaning and painting (that's why all the lid and door bolts were painted over from new).

As you point out, on the OP's car the lid sits high at the rear edge (in the middle of the cowl) and low at the corners. If you were to take the hood off and close the hinges, I am sure they would sit lower than is possible with the lid fitted. So if you were able to get the corners to sit up a little on the hinges, you would get either a larger gap in the middle or, as is more likely, the hinges would just pull it back down as far as it could, resulting in no difference. The problem here is that the hood has an excessive curve from rear corner to rear corner along the rear edge. If you reshape the lid so that the curve is flattened slightly, then the middle of the hood would sit down on the cowl seal (and actually seal). If you get the curve to match the curve of the cowl then the corners will not be able close as low as they are currently doing; the hinges are pulling but not by enough to bend the lid down at the corners.

This is all normal. However, as I mentioned before, it is best to do all this before painting because of the next bit: When you reshape the rear curve of the lid, it tends to make the rear corners of the lid splay out enough to both look annoying and reduce the sealing efficiency. This has to be fixed by sharp hammer strikes on the lower edge of the lid corners, with a flat piece of metal between (to prevent panel damage). if it is already painted, it is possible to crack or damage the paint. I have managed to do it to a painted car without damage, but this is more up to luck than anything else!

The excessive gap under the sides of the lid can be removed by pulling the lid, as previously described, and this and all other adjustments are done without the catch/lock installed. Once the lid appears to fit perfectly, in all respects, then fit the catch (or paint and fit the catch) and you are done. There is an actual measurement for the distance from the catch plate to handle mount on the lid so you don't have to trial fit the catch to see if it works (can't remember it at the moment). This is especially handy when the apron is new too and you want to rivet the lower catch after painting. Sometimes the sides of lid will overlap the side panels but this usually only happens when the side panels are new too. When this happens you have to used a soft hammer and bang the top of the side panels out until they line up - Don't expect the wings to pull the side panels into place when they are fitted.

Remember that these adjustment are for new panels. Fitting a used lid would probably not require any adjustments at all. Not sure if I have missed anything but if I have, or have not been clear, just ask and I will respond.


This is all very interesting and useful information. Thanks for the detail.
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1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.

I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Ill fitting hood Reply with quote

mslibertarian wrote:
I do have the original hood. It is just rusted and kinked one one side. I may just band aid the rust and go back to it.


Wait a second. Do I understand then that the OG hood got kinked on one side while it was sitting somewhere off of the car? Because if it was ON the car when you kinked it- it most certainly jacked the front apron or latch area ever-so-slightly. I want to see a picture of this OG hood now.

Time to accurately measure the center of your hood pin and hood latch receiver hole. If it is a mm off from one side or the other, you are not barking up the right tree.
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