Author |
Message |
abl1111 Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2004 Posts: 399
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
On my brothers '78 vert, we found some play where his inner tie rod arms connect at the rack and pinion. It's tough to see how it's attached - is this something that has a bushing or is adjustable ?
When we jacked the front of the car to inspect, we noticed it when you you shimmied the wheels side to side - you can see the mounting area where the inner tie rods mount - moving.
Thx. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
Racks have bushings on the end of either side.
There's probably is a wear limit on them but it's overlooked by most mechanics unless it is causing an acute problem. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abl1111 Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2004 Posts: 399
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
Damn ! I have tried to copy a picture to this site of a rack and pinion to show what I'm talking about. Your pix does not look like the rack I'm seeing. Autozone does have a good illustration but I cannot get it over here. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
volksworld Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011 Posts: 2529 Location: formerly NY currently NC
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
that rack picture is for a "normal" rack like in a golf and has nothing in common with the parts on a super rack that are giving him problems...the inner tie rod ends on a super are just a loop with a rubber bushing that a bolt goes through...like the end of a steering damper or a rear shock....the bushings can go bad....not sure if the inner end can be bought separately or if you have to buy the whole tie rod....another problem with those racks by design is that thrust through the tie rods into the rack tends to try to rotate the internals of the rack and wear stuff out....so if there doesnt seem to be play in the individual bushings and the two inners are moving up and down in unison the rack is shot |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
I posted the first image because it was the only image I could find at the time that depicts that there are other aspects of a rack that can cause the symptom of a worn inner tie rod.
So there isn't any bushings aligning the rack in the housing? _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.
Last edited by theKbStockpiler on Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abl1111 Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2004 Posts: 399
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
" ..so if there doesnt seem to be play in the individual bushings and the two inners are moving up and down in unison the rack is shot "
The two inners are moving up and down.
So - this is not adjustable ? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
As already stated ,the super rack really does not have inner tie rods. It has a connection that rotates on a bolt. These could be worn so you want to rule that possibility out. You could remove both tie rods ,place the bolts back in and see if the rack (shaft) moves up and down in the housing a lot. It really should only have very slight play if any.
I would not be extremely critical of some play in the rack unless it is causing a problem. If it is really sloppy , then I would be concerned because it could bind or lock up. Usually when cars are put through a State Safety inspection ,the inspector is not really critical of the cause of slight play in the inner tie rods or rack because it is difficult to pin down. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abl1111 Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2004 Posts: 399
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
OK. Right now, we're trying to isolate the terrible shimmy at 60-65 mph. The tie rods look good, the union where the tie rods and rack meet has some up and down play. I have the same car, a '79, so I will check mine to see.
Could be balancing, tires etc. Or struts - the super has such a sensitive front end - its a PITA to keep the front end happy and running smooth. The steering universal looks tight - so... just trouble shooting other potential areas.
Nice thing about being brothers with essentially the same car, living close by and both really clean, in almost stock condition is that we can either swap parts or see the differences. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
I think the rack supers have a lesser tendency to shimmy.
My own opinion the cause:
-Wheel balancing
-Cheap tires that are not round or have excessive run out
-Bent/excessive run out of rims _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ach60 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2001 Posts: 4139 Location: Santa Maria
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
theKbStockpiler wrote: |
I think the rack supers have a lesser tendency to shimmy.
My own opinion the cause:
-Wheel balancing
-Cheap tires that are not round or have excessive run out
-Bent/excessive run out of rims |
X2
I checked 8 wheels I had for my '78, 6 of them had 1/4" run-out _________________ Good Luck
Al |
|
Back to top |
|
|
volksworld Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011 Posts: 2529 Location: formerly NY currently NC
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
the late supers dont have a steering damper so i think they're more sensitive....just less stuff to go bad without an idler arm and centerlink....soft aftermarket lower control arm bushings cause problems as well as spring loaded tie rod ends( these will have a bump on the top )...its hard to feel play in them because of the spring....you need to squeeze them top to bottom with a big set of channellocks to see the play |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abl1111 Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2004 Posts: 399
|
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
Thx guys. I’ll check it out. What is run out on a rim ? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
volksworld Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011 Posts: 2529 Location: formerly NY currently NC
|
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion - Inner Tie Rod Play ? |
|
|
run out is how far a rim or tire deviates from being perfectly round and straight...usually if you see more than 1/8 inch you're in trouble with a super....side to side is usually worse than up and down....spin balancing stuff thats out of round does not help the problem, its still not round even if its perfectly balanced....also, radials that have been run on front ends that have problems that cause them to shimmy will wear ripples in the tread that are virtually impossible to see but will result in the car still shaking after the front end problems have been repaired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|