First timer engine build/rebuild

[Aka808]

Hi,
I have a 1965 VW Bug with a fairly fresh 1600cc DP. But it leaks some oil and overheats sometimes. It has dual weber 34 ICT's and heater boxes with a rusty Empi dual tip header system that sounds stockish with the chirp.
It is mostly a weekend fun car but i want to drive it more often. I want to rebuild and upgrade the motor and i have scrounged together a bunch of parts and tools to do it now that i have a garage and workshop. Please help me out with any recommendations.
My original intention for the first rebuild/upgrade was to try and not split the case if possible and go 88x69=1679cc. But now i am thinking maybe just do it because the heads and carbs i have to put on would be a lot happier with a better than stock cam and a counter weighted mini 74-76mm stroker crank 88x74=1800cc or 88x76=1849cc.

Parts already purchased
Dual Dellorto 40 DRLAs with cb linkage
Mofoco 042 heads 40x35, 55cc chamber
CB forged 1.3 rockers
Tri mill euro two tip muffler ceramic
1.5" vintage speed SS j pipes
88mm cylinders and pistons slip in bottom, 90.5/92 top, AA Hypereutectic
CB thin line 1.5 oil sump
Bosch 019 distributor
Oil pump/filter combo

Any recommendations on a cam and crank?
Should i get different sized connecting rods or lifters?
Will i need to get different length push rods and tubes?
I bought tools to measure deck height and CC measuring tool as well but i am at a loss on what compression ratio and deck height to shoot for.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Mahalo!

[VW_Jimbo]

Is it going to be for the weekend or are you going to be driving it everyday?


The 1.3s need to go with an appropricate camhaft.

On the crank, what rpm are you planning on taking the engine up to. The differences are mainly centered around maximum rpm. The 4130 & 4140 Chromolly will get you into the 7000s and the 4340 will get you a little higher. But balancing will play a role in that as well.

More importantly, what is the number on the engine case?
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Aka808]

Hi Jimbo,
It is mostly a weekend fun car.
I would be super happy with a 7000-7500 rpm limit.
I was thinking the CB 74mm 4140 Counterweighted crank.
From what i read on some other engine builds seems like the classic Engle 110 is a good cam choice. But i have heard really good things about Web cams too.
My engine case is an AE dual relief i believe originally from a 71'
I have been sort of thinking about trying to find another case to play around with but not sure how to check and choose a used one properly.
I have been reading up on AC.net 1800 motor build and seems like that's the direction i'm going.
But I still have the option of canceling my order of the 88mm slip ins as they have not shipped yet due to another item being backordered. So i could change my plan and go bigger if it makes more sense.

[VW_Jimbo]

[VW_Jimbo]

One more thing. After thought.

Build it as big as your wallet will allow. Within a few weeks after completion, you will find yourself thinking, "Man, I should have...….."! That is the reality. Make it so you will be happy with it after all is said and done.

The current 2127 I just built (twice), was originally going to be a 1835. I decided at the last few moments to increase the crank to an 80mm. Looking back, super glad I did! Well, up till my tranny imploded! But that is underway.

So, I guess, build it big enough so you do not make your tranny go clunk, clunk, clunk, thud!

Scratch that!

Build it to the point where your tranny will live through it and make it big enough that you will be happy! There, I think I covered it all.

You know what. Screw it!

Build it big, then drive it like a madman. Blow your tranny up and then build a new tranny! There I think I got it down! That's the way I would do it!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[nsracing]

If you have not built an engine before, I would advice against building strokers...for now.

Instead, do a simple overhaul on a 1500cc or 1600cc - start w/ those. If you can do that competently, then you can move up to other things. I am not knocking your engine building prowess, but then again maybe you are that good. I don't know.

But, your money after all.

Get you nice Bentley and let it guide you on this build.

[Aka808]

Thanks for the input.
I think i will go with the CB 74mm CW 4140 crank.
I am thinking about the Web 163 cam. Anybody use this cam?
What lifters should i get to match that cam?
I was thinking the CB 28mm lightweight lifters.
Should i buy new connecting rods? 5.325 would let me reuse my stock length pushrods.
Or should i reuse my stock rods and but new cut to length pushrods?
Do the 1.3 rockers change my pushrod length as well?

[Aka808]

Bump for more input?

[[email protected]]

you are asking for trouble for a 7500 limit with a 4140 crank. Lower your RPM expectations to 6500, it will be a lot cheaper and more reliable.

Do you have the rocker arms yet?
_________________
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[jpaull]

before you install those CB 1:3's, you should read this recent thread:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699677&highlight=

[Aka808]

I agree John, as i never expected more than around 6500rpm. But would be really happy with 7000+...
John, Any news on fabtech tach bracket restock yet?

I already have the CB 1.3 rockers still in packaging. A little scary reading that thread. Think i should return them or sell them?

My 042 heads only have upgraded single springs so not sure i could use the 1.3 rockers without upgrading to dual springs anyways.

Any comment on the Web cam 163 choice?
CB lightweight lifters a good choice?
CB Aluminum pushrods?
Stock connecting rods or should i go h beam?

[Aka808]

Bump

[jpaull]

From what I see so far in your parts and preferences, your not building a engine that will be making power above 6000 rpms. So why make it hard on yourself by shooting for 7K? Make it easier, your parts and plan will go smoother.

Do you have money for H-beams? You could go 76mm and H beams with little to no clearancing. You might talk to John about your plan. If you go to 76mm, you can get a stronger 4340 crank such as here:

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/4340-Forged-Chromoly-76mm-Type-1-Crankshaft-p/003-4376vw.htm

[nsracing]

People who have never built these kinds of motors have grand ideas of how the motor will turn that many RPMs and live. It all looks good at least on paper. Everyone will find their own legs around these things. So I am not going to discourage where they want to start their experience w/ aircooled VWs.

I have met someone recently who has gone this route too. Big cranks and the whole kit. Now he is finding out how much work and money it takes to build strokers. Machining, balancing, porting, carb and headwork..so on.

Eager is good. But too eager will get you in trouble.

Post pics of this is coming along.

[Bob Brugge]

Just got done with my first build. Everything from the short block out. I love it! These guys are right tho. Figure out what you want and compare it to what you can afford.
1800cc is fairly common for buses, I read the same ac.net article and dreamed of sports car style speed...no.
1849 looks good until you realize that it is just different enough from stock that absolutely nothing will be stock, from push rods to carbs. You need the 5.325 rods to get the engine back down to stockish width and then still have to screw with everything from tin down.
Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
I had to check everything again and again to make sure I hadn't screwed anything up. I consider my mechanical skills to be moderate at best. I am a great backyard mechanic. even still, it was a real challenge.
If you don't have the tools or the skill I would suggest getting a turn key engine. They can nail down exactly what you want and expect and send it to you.
_________________
Keep on Dubbin'!

[Aka808]

Update:
Plans have changed and i have begun planning and buying parts for a
2017cc build. I need some input on this combo and if anything is badly mismatched. I am worried about the exhaust being restrictive according to the Aircooled website description, this exhaust is only good to 90HP. I am not sure if the HD single springs will be able to handle the 1.3 rockers and web cam 163? If not does CB or anyone else sell 1.1 rocker arms that fit the CB1.3 forged rocker shafts? What pushrods should i use? I have a tool to measure when i get there in assembly. Will a stock doghouse oil cooler be enough cooling? I am also wondering what compression ratio i should shoot for without messing with the heads and using 89 pump gas-ethanol free. An 8:1CR would give me a .104 deck height. An 8.5:1CR would give me a .075 deck height. An 8.75:CR would give me a .062 deck height.

AS41 AE case opened for 90.5/92 and Full Flowed
Dual Dellorto 40 DRLAs with cb linkage
Mofoco 042 heads 40x35, 55cc chamber. Single HD springs
CB forged 1.3 rockers
90.5mm B P&C AA Hypereutectic
CB 78.4 CW crank
Webcam 163 grind with matched lifters(Scat i think?)
CB 5.5 Unitech rods
CB thin line 1.5 oil sump
Bosch 019 distributor
Aircooled Full flow kit
26mm Schadek oil pump plugged for full flow
Tri mill euro two tip Hot Dog muffler ceramic coated
1.5" vintage speed SS j pipes

[vilihardrada]

buy a new case, then port it to match the old case. the old case wont last long the way you wish to use it. use the old case to build a stock engine for a back up.

[Brian_e]

Your combo looks decent, but you should change a few things.

Stock clearanced rods will be fine. You dont need 5.5 rods. They will just require more cylinder base shim.

You will need B height pistons for a 78mm crank.

The 163 is a great cam for this displacement range. If you are using anything over stock rocker, run dual springs.

Plan on cutting pushrods. There is no guessing this. The engine will need to be fully mocked up to do this. AC.Net aluminum's are great.

The 163 should have at least 9.0cr. I would not run more then .045" deck either. Again, there is no guessing this. The engine will have to be mocked up to get real measurements.

I would run a AA 1 1/2" sidewinder header. The Hot Dog will be a plug.

I would add a forged 12.5lbs flywheel, KEP stage 1 pressure plate, and a daiken disk also.

This combo should peak just about 6000rpm.

A 76mm Chevy journal crank with 5.5" Chevy rods on a B height piston works out very nicely also.

I built a very similar 2021cc with good 40x35 heads, a 163 cam, and 40mm IDF's. Great engine. Lots of usable power.

Brian

[Aka808]

Thanks for the info!
I am not sure i can afford a new case.
It would cost well over $1500 after shipping to Hawaii.
I will check out the difference in stock rods to 5.5 rods on mockup.
I will look into a 1.5" exhaust but not a big fan of the sidewinders and there expensive.
I will stick with the stock 1.1 rockers for now. Hopefully i can find 1.1s that fit the CB forged 1.3 rocker shafts.
A 9:1 CR would give me a .049 deck height.