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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:54 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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Yeah that guy is OK! He's just testing one property..... but it's useful.
Notice brad penn was WAY down in his tests, and yet we know it does great in spintron tests, so one kind of test is not the whole story.... Reminds me.
I say.... I've never seen any problem at all traced to VR1, that's high praise, sounds convoluted, but that's true. I've seen all kinds of strange stuff happen with this or that other brand, in some situation or another.
You can't say THIS OR THAT is the best just because one test, or two, just one property of it, but every test USUALLY valvoline tends to do well, and motorcraft usually does poorly.
I ran motorcraft for a while when I got my new CB lifters.....I wanted to see if I could kill them with it. They lived tho. I guess it was good enough. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7216
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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That guy´s chart is rather informative, and interesting. But it is not much good for EU residents as the difference in the oil package varies a great deal from continent to continent. (Unless the oil is imported of course)
Another thing that the chart does not say anything about is the very important (to us) ability to pick up heat and dissapate it again.
A lot of the "modern" fleet oils nowadays use other materials in the package to get the same protection as Zink, Boron and magnesium helps with in older types of blends. That works too, - to a certain extend. For a stock or mild engine with medium pressure valve spring tension these oils are adequate as is. for engines with high valve spring pressure it is NOT.
Modern oils are getting closer and closer brand to brand, because the modern automotive fleet requires higher/tighter specs to uphold enviromental values. There are still differences though. In a normal modern engine you will barely notice them. But when you go racing you´ll notice differences. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:03 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
I find it crappily interesting ....from a moderation point of view....that when this thread got moved from the bay window forum....all of my comments.....none of which had oil brand information...and all of which were about zddp chemistry......got deleted.
Ray |
Ray,
We are asking all the mods to see if anyone deleted anything.
| Quote: |
| DON'T post messages asking why something was removed, ask a moderator or the admin (EverettB). |
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jeeeeeeeez....MY APOLOGIES!   
Its my fault. This thread went from one page to two pages.....so fast I missed it. I was looking at page two.
Sorry for assuming it was the mods. I will amend my post. Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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| flat4olsen wrote: |
a quote from this very detailed study of engine oil https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-...1mwZCIgKo:
"A high level of zinc/phos is simply no guarantee of providing sufficient wear protection. And to make matters even worse, excessively high levels of zinc/phos can actually “cause” DAMAGE your engine, rather than “prevent” it. Motor Oil Industry testing has found that motor oils with more than 1,400 ppm ZDDP, INCREASED long-term wear. And it was also found that motor oils with more than 2,000 ppm ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling (pitting and flaking). The ZDDP value is simply the average of the zinc and the phosphorus values, then rounded down to the nearest 100 ppm (parts per million)" |
So the problem is that there are a few thousand websites...speaking about zddp...most ignoring the CHEMISTRY of what zddp actually is....and speaking like zddp itself is the lubricant or culprit.
Nothing anyone is saying on these zillion sites is incorrect...but neither are they the whole story.
Understand these ELECTROCHEMICAL facts:
1. zinc...is not a lubricant in any way or form. What zinc IS...is a highly electrochemically...charged....active/reactive molecule.
2. Zinc lends "0" sacrificial anti-corrosion qualities to any ferrous metal....in liquid form especially in oil.
Zinc IS a sacrificial anode ...in plated/metallic/salt form...meaning in SOLID form...on any ferrous metal.
In order for zinc to work like this...it MUSY contact either free oxygen or water/moisture...to allow its to actually oxidize and form what the zinc plating industry calls "white rust"...that powdery look. The electron charge that zinc produces is what makes it an anode against rust.
3. The zinc molecule is used in zddp...because of its wicked ability to bond its electron shells to other molecules of USE...molecules that provide anti-Scuff...lubrication.......AND FILM STRENGTH.
Also bear in mind that changes in viscosity of an oil...do not automatically mean that it is slicker or lubrciates better. Viscosity in ANY fluid is simply one property. And...viscosity and film strength and "tack" level can be adjusted independently.
In many cases ...viscosity can be adjusted with particles of any of the HUNDREDS OF talcs out there. One would think that adding a micro powder would always make a liquid thicker and that not the case. Depending on the polarity of the liquid...it can make it thicker, thinner, slicker, more or less shear sensitive or resistant etc.
Also...the comment that "zddp" attacks this or that...like grain structure...is only partly revealing.
ZDDP...is not a single ingredient...and depending on who makes it....it may have more or less of the three main ingredients that make it up....in it at any time.
For the record..."grain boundaries"...in cast iron.....are the edges of each crystal of the metal. Its all about the electrons in the shells of the atoms that make up these crystalline structures.
For something to affect these....it would have to affect the sub atomic particles that make up teh atoms. Either bind electrons or strip electrons. Yes...zinc is charge active enough that it "could" plate itself to another molecule...after all...cast iron IS a ferrous metal.......but likewise...the sufur that is used and contained in ZDDP....is also electrochemically reactive.
As sulfur oxidizes....especially with heat and moisture...it creates sufuric acid as one of several by-products. This changes teh PH of teh oil....which is an electrochemical/electrolytic...charge active...reaction. That can also attack crystalline lattices like cast iron.
Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
If you are trying to booster the amount of ZDDP in your oil, you don't have to add very much of a concentrated ZDDP additive. The amounts given on a typical container assume that you have zero ZDDP to start with which is a down right lie as far as I know. SM/SN oils 10w30 and thinner are limited to 800 parts per million phosphorus, which works out to 800 ppm ZDDP, and few oils have substantially less ZDDP than that. If you want to increase your ZDDP to 1100 PPM you are only talking about a few ounces of a concentrated additive. THE EXACT AMOUNT REQUIRES THE MATH YOU DIDN'T LEARN IN HIGH SCHOOL TO FIGURE OUT.
If you are wanting to go from 800 ppm to 1400 ppm though, I would suggest starting with a different oil, say one that already contains 1100 or 1200 ppm ZDDP.
A 10w40 or thicker oil is not limited in the amount of phosphorus/ZDDP that can be in its additive package, unless it says something like "resource conserving" on the bottle. "High mileage" oils are also not limited in their phosphorus/ZDDP. Check what you buy before you buy.
Straight weight oils too do not have phosphorus/ZDDP restrictions and will often have a viscosity index that rivals a multigrade oil, though it says 30wt on the bottle a modern 30wt may have about the same cold and hot viscosities as a dino 10w30, all without viscosity modifying additives and without having restrictions in the amount of ZDDP that can be added.
Dumping in a bottle or two of "RED" STP may actually lower the concentration of ZDDP in your crankcase while messing with your additive blend in unknown ways. |
Depends....
Valvoline VR-1 racing 10W-30 has the same ZDDP content as it's 20W-50 counterpart. It can be had at NAPA easily even in SAE 30 or SAE 40 |
No depends at all, for VR-1 in a 10w30 weight Valvoline does not claim that it is a SM/SN oil and thus it is not regulated by the SAE/API.
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/184...162d889bd1
For a VR-1 in a 20w50 weight Valvoline sometimes claims it is an SM/SN oil and sometimes doesn't, but the point is mute (as far as ZDDP) as oils thicker than 10w30 (excepting resource conserving oils) are not required to have restricted phosphorus. |
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rodeking
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017
Posts: 369
Location: near Buffalo NY
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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OK so for my cam break-in I use Supertech 10-30  with a bottle of LUCAS ZDDP. |
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UK Luke 72
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Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
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Arnolds64
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 724
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP oil additive |
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This will throw in wrench in it all..
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
It is similar to Bobs the oil guy site. More about psi strength of the oil film.
My old VW's engine was built prior to Zinc lowering. Tore it down to add HP. Valve train look good. After rebuild I Broke it in with Rotella T using advice from here and other forums. I then switched to Brad Penn after finding out the Rotella I used had been changed to lower Zinc Crossed fingers that it did not screw it up. Tore it down to go larger cam and lifters and all the lifters were pitted. Broke it in with Joe Gibbs and later went to Brad Penn. New owner told me ( Decide to drop C/R) that the cam looked fine. This is just my experience.
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64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels. |
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