All New Wiper Parts, And....

[&Dan]

Dear God, I loath this car. '65 Beetle, 12 V conversion, endless, endless problems. Mostly stemming from very bad parts.

Install 12 V armature from WW, install new WW switch, and the thing is utterly haywire. Yes, it is wired correctly. As soon as the ignition key is switched to ON position, regardless whether the wiper switch is in ON or OFF position the wipers go apeshit and refuse to shut off, park or behave in any but baffling fashion. Behaves like a 6V wiper in a 12 V vehicle, out of control! Wiper switch has NO effect. All grounds are good. What in heck gives?

[KTPhil]

I doubt it is wired "correctly" if it behaves that way. That said, "correct" is a gamble given the mix of parts and voltages at this point, so you have to become the electrical engineer for the circuit now.

Listing the terminal numbers on your wiper motor, wiper switch, and also a check of the wiring to the fusebox, all will help us figure out what's wired incorrectly.

It sounds like maybe some wiring is swapped, probably involving the self-parking circuit, but the particulars aren't clear until we see a diagram of how YOURS is now wired, by terminal number and voltage source (fusebox). A handmade wiring diagram with terminal and fuse numbers will serve us, and you in the future.

[Hokie87]

[&Dan]

Yanked the mess out and bench tested it and I think it's done for. You know, before I began work on these components I read every post I could find here and proceeded like it was open-heart surgery. I do not get it. This overall job has been plagued by one-in-a-million bad parts and machine-shop screwups to the extent a guy could get awful paranoid. Sure has taken the wind out of my sails. But thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

[Zwitterkafer]

Does the switch have terminals 31b, 54d, and 54? Wired to the same numbers on the motor? The motor/frame should indeed be grounded. This is clearly shown in the wiring diagrams on this site. The grommets at the wiper shafts and at the mounting frame are there for paint protection and to reduce vibration....not to isolate the unit from ground.

The early versions grounded the frame through a copper ground tab at the frame mounting bolt. The later versions added ground terminal 31 to the motor and switch, for dedicated ground wires, to improve reliability. 31 was eventually added to the wiper switch so that it no longer had to rely on finding ground at the edges of the dashboard hole, where paint could interfere with the connection.

So, make sure that your wiper switch is connected to ground at terminal 31 if so equipped, otherwise, for the earlier type, make sure that the wiper switch is tight in the dashboard and thus grounded to it.

Note: 31 ground and 31b is not the same. 31b is a switched ground provided from a properly grounded wiper switch, to electrically stop the motor. Provide more detail about your setup, and I'm sure the experts here can help you figure this out.
_________________
"Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC

[glutamodo]

Just want to make one comment - the terminal 31 on the wiper switch was never an input for ground. Nope, it was the opposite, it was a ground SOURCE. The switch bolted hard to the metal dash and as such was firmly grounded. The 31 tab was a source for other circuits needing a good ground point - and in 1967 it was used for a ground point for the high/low headlight relay switch. It actually had nothing to do with the wiper circuit.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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[Zwitterkafer]

^^ True for '67 to 69, but false beginning in 1970, when VW finally got it right and tied 31 on the wiper switch to a ground terminal shared by that other stuff.

The point is, the wiper switch body must be grounded, and a wire connection to a ground terminal was a design improvement over relying on the switch grounding at the painted dashboard hole.

If an old style switch (no 31) is not properly grounded, the motor park feature will not work, since ground will not be sent to the motor via 31b. In this condition, it is possible that the motor, if running fast enough, will sweep past the parking micro switch arrangement and be "unstoppable". This could be the OP's problem, particularly if all the wiring is correct as claimed.
_________________
"Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC

[&Dan]

Thanks, guys- turns out I did have everything wired up properly, including a good ground, meaning a cleaned-to-bare-metal spot on the trunk side of the switch location for the new WW switch on the dashboard, and the motor grounded via its mount per specs, so the observation the thing was working so fast it swept past the contact appears apt. That behavior continued when I later bench-tested it, having run a lead from the brass fitting on the reverse of the switch to ground along with a ground on the motor/frame, and one more ground lead to 31 terminal on the switch for good measure. Again, no response from switch settings, just took off. That time, though, it up and died after a few seconds and I couldn't get any more movement or life out of it. No smoke, just stopped operation. Baffling.

Have yet to autopsy the thing- afraid the gears are toast. But I will, and will let you know what I find. Again, it behaved like a 6V armature on 12V. Don't want to point a finger at WW yet w/r/t either the switch or armature, but bad components seem to be plaguing this project, such as a mis-remanufactured generator that motored backwards. No end of WTF stackup on this damn vehicle.

[&Dan]

Hmm...autopsy revealed patient not dead. That's a surprise! Took motor apart, gears appear not-ruined, cleaned, re-regreased it, seems to operate okay w/o a ton of noise and commotion. Signs and wonders...

[Zwitterkafer]

That is baffling indeed. Sounds like you've done everything right. Were you able to inspect the auto-park micro-switch & cam arrangement in the wiper motor? When the motor is "unstoppable" in the switch = off position, does it at least slow momentarily as the parking cam & micro switch tries to halt it? The friction of wiper blades on the windshield would help slow things down a little, helping with parking, but it should work fine on the workbench too, using a car battery.
_________________
"Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC

[&Dan]

I'm all ears- how does one go about inspecting the auto-park microswitch and cam arrangement? The three points on little stems appear intact.

With the switch, that is the dashboard switch, taken out of the game- and I'm away from the shop and can't recall which terminal on the motor is the self-park guy- I noted when power is applied to it it seems to attempt to do its job, cf, appears to hesitate and think for a sec, and once or twice the motor came to a stop, but since the motor is not in situ, with wiper arms and blades attached [or switch] it's hardly a fair test.

Maybe tomorrow I should install everything and see what happens and report back. I have no problem disassembling the motor/gear unit and looking at what I should look at. Multiple times if necessary.

Wipers...sheeesh. Can't live with 'em, can't etc. Can you tell this is all a bit Greek to me? 'Cuz it is! Thanks for walking me through this.

[andk5591]

The motor is just a motor and the linkage is just the linkage. There is no need to put it all together to test the motor and switch. And here are some diagrams. When looking at this, just remembered that you NEED to ground the wiper switch body. Did you?

_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[&Dan]

[andk5591]

I cant take credit for the drawings.. I believe they were done by Glutamodo
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[glutamodo]

That belief is correct. Not sure how much they impact this discussion but yep, I did draw those up.

And it was mentioned about VW changing things regarding wiper system grounds in 1970, but that trend started in 1969 - that was when VW went to having dedicated grounds for all circuits. The overall wiring was about the same - it was really for model year 1972 that the wiper circuit went for a complete overhaul.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[Zwitterkafer]

"...…...but that trend started in 1969..."

Agreed, calendar 1969, but model year 1969 or 1970?
_________________
"Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC

[&Dan]

...aaaaand it winds up doing the same damn thing after installation: Almost works, then goes cuckoo, then quits. Fuggit. New motor time.

[glutamodo]

[Zwitterkafer]

^^ Interesting indeed, thanks for posting that.

Now if only we had a "smoking gun" root cause for OP's weird failure mode.
_________________
"Criticism comes easier than Craftsmanship"
- Zeuxius, 400 BC

[KTPhil]

Internal short when installing the 12V armature?
Still mis-wired despite appearances?
Failure inside wiper switch?