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fastbackdavid Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2003 Posts: 54
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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I may have mentioned this in a previous pm but I was reminded by your latest pic. Some years ago I read about a 914 road racer who claimed 10-15 degrees cooler running temps just by cleaning the casting flash off the fins and opening all the holes to their max. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Thanks for the props, Jason.
It's been a really long, really slow process,
That should hopefully start getting interesting in a bit.
Not sure if they have wrinkle vein ceramic.. Will ask; that might look good and hide well.
I do know that trying powder coat on a mag shroud makes itself into wrinkle vein automatically even if it starts out smooth. BTDT.
David,
Glad to see you still watching.
With the factory type 4 heads, they are way better fin-detail-wise than the AMC heads for sure.
We won't even touch on some of these type 1 heads.. Egad!.
I'll be detailing them out with the jewelry files and all after we get the valve spring cuts made. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: Ugh! Barely Chugging Along. |
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Spent a half day finishing up welds on heaters..
A bunch of grinding to make them pretty.
Ran out of Rolocs in the finer grits,
So some waiting.
Will have to get them smooth smooth, as the ceramic doesn’t seem to cover much.
Also started the slog through boxes and piles to try and find a full set of tins.
Gonna be a lot of little fiddly work to get them right for this weird app.
Thinking regular paint/body vs. Metal-2-Metal and powder...
The temptation to go wrinkle vein to save work sanding tin is pretty huge..
Was going to go and take the heaters in for coating,
But decided to a bunch of mock-up.
Good thing;
Some of this stuff doesn’t fit at ALL!
Luckily, this was seen coming in advance,
And we’ll git ‘er all sussed.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: The Big Tin Fit |
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Back in the saddle again!
Had a whole day for a change..
So here's another really long rambly post;
Because installing a type 4 into a type 3 'factory style' is so involved,
I'll show the details.
If you look again at the pic above, the 'front sleds' for lack of a better term, are wrong.
Those are from a 72-74 (what we'll now call early) bus.
72-74 is an early bus, after all, right?
All of the late ones are 75-79 of course..
It was time to hunt and dig;
Play a game I call Look and Find.
Found the 411/412 front sleds! WhooHoo! Off to a good start..
Lesseee here..
A whole set of early tins and heaters available on the 'cheap Junk' early bus motor..
A complete set of late bus tins, all powder-coated up for if/when I ever build a late bus again..
And here in the attic, a set of Vanagon tins, and, er, a whole bunch of other tin, too..
Why to I hoard all of this crap??
Well, here we go; to have options fitting a type 4 into a type 3 of course!
Here we have the top and front/top tins from a 2.0 914..
The 914 tins work well at the front for a couple of reasons:
First of all, the 'front' tin has this recess, moving the tin more forward.
This gets the tin tight up to the 'firewall' at the front of the compartment.
Bus tins leave a gap about 1"; this step (recess?) fills the gap like magic.
914 tin makes a sharp 90' angle at the bottom front, just like the type 3 tin was originally.
The 914 tin is a lot bigger than it needs to be, to fit the type 3 compartment,
As shown by this gold line scribed when the motor was installed.
So, there you go.. This was the rear tin when mounted in a 914.
Remember the 914 is mid-engine, but lucky for us type 3 conversion people,
It makes things fit just like factory.
It does, however, cause issues when fitting other parts.
In this case, I'm using 411/412 heaters and under tin 'sleds', but 914 top/front, so it causes all manner of issues.
I'll post up now before this all gets lost.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:29 am Post subject: More Tin Fitting |
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Here's where the struggle starts with this mismatch of parts;
The 'chimneys' at the front of the heater boxes.
Here is an early bus chimney and associated early bus front tin,
Sitting on 914 top tin, and trying to line up with a 411/412 heater box.
You can see it's all no Bueno.
The bus front tin sits way back compared to the 914,
Plus, the 411/412 heaters line up all wrong.
Same with the driver's side;
The bolts that hold the top tins to the sleds are a fixed position on all type 4s,
Thus illustrating how the bus chimneys aren't even close to working with the 411/412 heaters.
Yep, test-fitting on a set of early heater boxes up in the attic,
The early bus heaters are way different than the 411/412.
This sucks.
The 411/412 apparently use their own funky chimneys, and now I'm on a quest for some.
Otherwise, it's going to be a LOT of fab work to get these early bus chimneys to fit.
Whatever it takes, man..
Anyways,
After going thru the chimney gyrations,
It was time to make some actual progress.
The early heads are 100% for sure going to be used now,
So it was time to relocate the plug holes in the 2.0 914 tin.
(This, of course, being the exact opposite of the re-lo normally done to 914 tins )
Let the downgrade begin!
Lay late bus tin on top of 914 to scribe holes in silver pen..
Cut cut!
Zapzap!
Also fill misc other holes..
Downgrade completed!
Here's trying to suss out the alternator area..
Going to try and use the whole 'around alternator' tin, to try and keep it clean(er)?
It has that whole 'splash pan' thing on the back, but.. Hmm..
Mocking it all up, lucky me, the early bus alt bracket just works!
914 has a different alternator adjusting slot,
And it might be easier to use, or it might not..
Thinking it 'should' be easy enough to adjust the belt from the rear, like a bus, instead of in from the top.
So the 914 slot got removed..
Unfortunately, that means I'll have to add the bus alternator area to the 914 top tin.
Like this..
Thinking it would be clean to remove the 'flappy bits' from around the rear of the compartment,
Doing the "1/2 sealed, 1/2 not" like the type 3 originally had.
Wanted to be cleaning things up back there a bit,
As it doesn't need the booster blower tubes and whatnot,
Decided to just fab up this area from scratch.
Test fitting it, i kinda didn't take the shape into account right,
So it was a good place to stop and think for a bit. I was getting tired.
Couple more things to do..
Going to take the flap off the end of the alternator tin,
And relocate it inboard where the edge overlaps with the top tin.
Also probably going to trim this flap off all along the edge here (silver line).
Again, everything back from the middle of the compartment will get the flaps trimmed off.
Going to open up the top tin around the oil pressure sender;
Nice to have the hole just right for the dual sender vs. using a tube or fittings or some such..
So there you have it.
Only the chimneys and the carb linkage are still unknowns.
But there's a way either around or through those out there somewhere..
Hope all of this rambly nonsense and weird pics of unknown tin lumps helps someone one day.
Unless you are actually doing this, I'm sure it makes no sense at all whatsoever.
If ever mother VW actually put a type 4 into type 3 (like they shoulda ) this is how they woulda done it. IMHO. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22402 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Looking at your pics Steve makes me think we used bus upper and rear tin on my son's car, and a 914 front tin. I think we only added a couple of mounting screw holes, and trimmed a little off the left side tin. Otherwise it all went in just fine. I'd like to see some better pics of the very lower tin, as I'm pretty sure those are missing (bus or 411/412 style). Rob's going to use bus HE's but currently has 411/412 HE's on his engine. His bus HE's need some fab work before they can go on.
We haven't really started working with the HE outlet plumbing yet, as we were working on other stuff, and had put the car on the back burner, as he's busy and I'm busy, and I had no shop space for him to tie up. He was lucky he got to tie up a bay for as long as he did with his Honda. But we we thinking about mixing some late bug (78-79) plumbing bits with the bus plumbing to get us where we can get heat into the car. Thoughts? _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Bob,
If I lived in a colder climate, a set of 72-74 bus heaters would be an obvious choice.
They make way more heat.
Plus,
All of the bus chimney and control box stuff would just go right into place.
Easy peasy.
It’s the funny ‘angle of departure’, where the air comes out of the front of the heater box,
That makes the 411/412 boxes so hard to set up.
Thanks to Ray G sending me a parts diagram,
I can see that those 411/412 heaters go to a longitudinally-mounted gas heater up under by the trans.
The heaters are ‘aimed’ towards the center of the car because of this,
Instead of running forward like the bus or type 1/3 etc.
I’m trying to find a curved piece of tube to head them up into a set of bus control boxes.
Wish I woulda mocked this all up before I coated the inside of those boxes and welded them all up.
Woulda been easy enough to cut/weld the outlet pipes to ‘steer’ them the right direction, and make them match up to a set of bus chimneys.
Live and learn.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Bob,
Here's some pics of the bottom.
Heat exchangers, and front and rear 'sled tins' are all 411/412.
The crusty pieces are the front sleds..
Top tins and front 'firewall' tin are 914.
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Man, I'm feeling about dumb as a stump for not mocking these things up...
Why, oh why, did I just ASSume!?!?!
The front outlet tubes of the 411/412 heater boxes are SO 'pigeon toed'(!)
It woulda been easy enough to cut a pie-shaped section out and straighten..
Even on this side with the odd lump;
Why not just straighten and remove that lump.
What is that dumb lump for anyways!
It woulda been easy enough to cut them, then bolt them into their chimneys,
Holding them perfectly in place for patching!
Here, same thing upside down, shows that maybe a cut, at the line, then filler pieces put in to 'stretch' the tube a bit,
Would line it right up.
Just maybe, with some fab work,
I can detach the chimney tubes from their brackets,
And flip them side-to-side (put left on right and visa versa), to get the bends to match?
Maybe?
First thing I'm gonna do before i do anything is go and measure the actual car these are all going into.
Gonna measure center-to-center distance between,
And also how far forward from the motor/trans flange this all goes...
Because it would be even stupider than stupider than stupid to make a bunch of stuff up that won't even fit the car...
They say stupid _should_ be painful.
And I'll say from experience that yes, it is true.
Stupid is indeed very painful.
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9637 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Thanks for all the nitty-gritty details on the tin adaptations, Clatter.
Quote: |
Not sure if they have wrinkle vein ceramic.. Will ask; that might look good and hide well. |
Although I think a vein motif would look great for a custom touch, a stock semi-gloss black would be much more of a factory finish so that casual observers may not pick up on the engine being a Type 4 underneath. The understated, "stock-inspired" look would go well even if it hides all of the inherent detailed modifications you are performing.
15 years ago I painted several Type 1 engine fan shrouds and cylinder tins with Rust-O-Leum hammer finish spray paint for the same reason as you considering the vein motif- to hide some of the rust pits. I used several colors on different sets- silver, grey/black, copper, and even dark green. And those were simply near-stock engines but with dual carbs. Meantime I repainted the copper to dark grey hammer finish so that it does not deviate too much from stock semi-gloss black. But that engine is still apart to the long block.
More recently on pitted rusty areas on other Type 1 shrouds and cylinder tins, I've sprayed the rust-stabilized pitted areas with a few coats of primer/filler spray can and wet-sanded with 320 grit. Vastly reduces the pitting so that conventional spray paint color looks much better. Since you appear to have proper spray equipment for automotive paint, that would be more durable as to fuel resistance than most spray paints. I've not yet tried the recent gasoline-resistant engine spray paints. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22402 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Clatter wrote: |
Bob,
Here's some pics of the bottom.
Heat exchangers, and front and rear 'sled tins' are all 411/412.
The crusty pieces are the front sleds..
Top tins and front 'firewall' tin are 914.
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Yeah, those 2 black pieces are what he's missing. I have ZERO experience with T-4 engines and there needed tin.I know I don't have them laying around. The other pieces yes, those no.
Since you haven't sent the HE's to powder coat/ceramic coat, now is the time to fix them. I think your pie cuts will work though.It's a shame you can't just slice them off and turn them, as it would straighten and curve them up at the same time.Just a thought. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Brent Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2010 Posts: 1614 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Does this put the tubes even remotely close to where they they fit into the body? Seems really high. _________________ 69 Fastback Build
Berg5 Build |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22402 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Brent wrote: |
Does this put the tubes even remotely close to where they they fit into the body? Seems really high. |
My thought too, when compared to how the T-3 flaps are almost level with the seam of the tin split. A 76 bug puts them in a similar location, but uses the T-4 style of flap. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7622
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Clatter wrote: |
Thermostat?
Flaps?
And assorted linkage..?
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Is this even a thing on your build _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Xevin wrote: |
Clatter wrote: |
Thermostat?
Flaps?
And assorted linkage..?
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Is this even a thing on your build |
Of course!
Can’t have a proper heater box setup without a thermostat and flaps.
The thing won’t warm up and make heat correctly without.
This particular build hasn’t quite gotten that far just yet, though... _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: Heater Conundrum Continuation |
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I *think* I got the first piece of tin done!
It's not blasted or bodyworked or painted yet, but..
See that piece inside the hole, there?
It's bent out of the way to clear the dual sender,
And it's also been trimmed to clear the bigger cylinders.
So,
One down..!
Tried to make the hole -just- big enough, that the sender could still come in/out without pulling the top tin.
Sometimes these senders give issues (leak), so nice to have them come in/out easily.
The typical seal won't work here anymore,
But some split hose over the edge of the hole should seal it well enough.
Giving up a bit of cooling air, in exchange for one less hose, and fittings, in the compartment;
We'll call it a win.
Went over to Larry's and visited my car;
Got some measurements of the heater ductwork.
Made a drawing:
Now i -should- be able to make up some chimneys for the heater boxes;
Made to work with bus control boxes and flex ducts...
Looking at them some more,
it's looking like i should be able to just chop up the early bus chimneys,
vs. cutting heater boxes.
A couple of idears are coming as I play with them a bit..
Those heater boxes were already ceramic coated inside,
So i really, really don't want to mess with them if i don't have to. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Jason37 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1028
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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What if you got yourself some exhaust bends and made the chimneys? You could even add the rib on the side to make them appear stock. I order bends from Columbia River mandrel bends http://www.mandrelbends.com |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:06 pm Post subject: Chimney Flailings |
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So, it was Friday night after work, and Mom was out with her girlfriends from work...
After ruminating on it all week,
I kinda had some idears about how it should go.
So here it goes..
The left and right chimneys are different lengths,
'counta how the cylinders are staggered, where #3 sticks the farthest forward.
That means the chimney by #1 has to be longer than by #3.
Even though the clocking was wrong, the length was right,
So I had'ta use the left on the left, and right on right.
Clear as mud, right?
This meant chopping it in two places, and re-clocking it to get the bends going the 'correct' directions.
Once it seemed the chimney was right,
i shortened the mount bracket.
The 914 tin sticks way farther forward,
So the mount got bent over way closer to the chimney,
The end cut off,
And a new mount surface made by smashing it flat with a hammer.
Nuts will get welded onto the bracket
And a couple of holes drilled thru the front tin for screws.
Just like bus tin..
The driver's side got a similar treatment,
But it only needed cut and clocked in one place,
Plus the mount bracket shortened.
Might go all anal about details on the bracket and ribs and edges and all,
But for now, it's just about lining things up and mocking.
Here they are with control boxes in place.
It all seems to clear that front tin well enough,
(seeins' as it's so far forward y'never know).
That dang Brent guy might just be right (again ),
As the control boxes put the outlets well above the centerline of the input shaft.
Hopefully, the flex hoses from the control boxes to the body of the car will allow this mis-alignment.
Another concern is that they are so high up as to foul the floor above.
We'll be going by to see the car at the painter's here soon,
(Ian blasted the wheel centers for me! )
and we'll make some more measurements to see for sure.
Until then, we'll just leave things tacked;
Temptation to actually weld this all together is yuge, as the wind is dead calm tonight.
But,
We'll have to know for sure first.
Thanks for checking my wreck, Brent.
You mighta just saved me from myself! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Jason37 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1028
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Nice ironhead. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread |
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Jason37 wrote: |
Nice ironhead. |
Figured you might notice that..
It was supposed to be washed, but the weather never cooperated.
Only an ironhead could get all oily just sitting in the garage..
Got SO carried away with making that thing fast as I could,
That now,
I'm too old and feeble to start it anymore..
(It's 100% built to the balls BTW)
I always say that I'll start training on it to get fit enough to kick it through if if floods out one day;
Start kicking it 50 kicks a day for a few months until I can do it 500 times if need be.
But,
Yeah, right..
Like that's going to actually happen.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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