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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
Bendinx had to be doing SOMETHING in West Germany or a box with their logo and "Made in West Germany" on it wouldnt exist.


Enough with the 411 brakes for awhile, we've got turkey to eat and family to spend time with! Happy Thanksgiving Ray and everyone else lurking on this thread! Very Happy


Yep...that is true. It does say West Germany and Master Cylinder. I just do not know what the box went to. Though Bendix has manufactured all over the world....I'm betting thats a partner company. Ray
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scirocco81
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

The saga continues...........


I now have Goodridge bleeders on all 4 corners, just for grins I bled it all again to no avail.

Tried clamping off hoses and found the problem area, the front. If I clamp off the front hoses, I have great pedal.

I am satisfied there is no air in the system, now to switch to where all the pedal travel is going.

I did put new Centric pads in, but I did not install the new rotors. I just dont want $120+ worth of rotors sitting on a car not driving all winter.

I adjusted the pedal a bit, just to get rid of that play. It wasnt must to begin with but its a start and it is done now.
I cleaned the scale off the rotors and drove the car around the black a few times. The pedal is still low, but the car stops I thought getting some heat in the pads and calipers might help. It did not.

The only thing I can think of at this point is that for whatever reason the caliper pistons are not adjusting out, or cant move enough to adjust out. Just like every other time you put new pads in a caliper you have to pump the pedal to adjust the pistons out, I do not think the pistons are adjusting out to meet the pads, they are coming out, but not adjusting out and staying out.

I am going to cut some steel plate to mimic a worn set of pads and place them in the caliper and apply the brakes and see if the pistons move out to meet them and stay out to make the pedal firm.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
The saga continues...........


I now have Goodridge bleeders on all 4 corners, just for grins I bled it all again to no avail.

Tried clamping off hoses and found the problem area, the front. If I clamp off the front hoses, I have great pedal.

I am satisfied there is no air in the system, now to switch to where all the pedal travel is going.

I did put new Centric pads in, but I did not install the new rotors. I just dont want $120+ worth of rotors sitting on a car not driving all winter.

I adjusted the pedal a bit, just to get rid of that play. It wasnt must to begin with but its a start and it is done now.
I cleaned the scale off the rotors and drove the car around the black a few times. The pedal is still low, but the car stops I thought getting some heat in the pads and calipers might help. It did not.

The only thing I can think of at this point is that for whatever reason the caliper pistons are not adjusting out, or cant move enough to adjust out. Just like every other time you put new pads in a caliper you have to pump the pedal to adjust the pistons out, I do not think the pistons are adjusting out to meet the pads, they are coming out, but not adjusting out and staying out.

I am going to cut some steel plate to mimic a worn set of pads and place them in the caliper and apply the brakes and see if the pistons move out to meet them and stay out to make the pedal firm.



WAIT....WAIT....STOP!

Calipers do not work that way. If the hydraulic pressure builds enougj ti ca7se pad to rotor contact....without leaking....then its working fine.

The distance the pads retract whwn you let off the pedal....as a function of the distortion/flex of the seal.....is about .010" to .020" max. Thats all it requires.

This sounds....like you have the wrong pads. You do know that early pads are ahout pars mm thinner than late pads...rigjt?

So if you have room to be putting steel shims in ....either you have the wring pads or your pistons are doing some crazy retracting. Ray
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scirocco81
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

I did note the difference in pads from early to late and just checked my partsgeek order for the part number I bought. Their site plays musical chairs with part numbers but it does appear I ordered the correct early pads.
The pads I have fit with zero issues, they slot right in. Would the 1mm difference not allow the piston to come out?

I had considered this as well and a set of Textar (only option on WorldPac) pads will be delivered to the shop in the morning for me to compare thicknesses.


I am not going to make shims out of steel, I wanted to try using some steel plate to mimic a 50% or so worn set of pads, just to see how the pistons behave. I want to be able to get them out further than they are coming out currently. I suppose a small socket could perform the same function.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
I did note the difference in pads from early to late and just checked my partsgeek order for the part number I bought. Their site plays musical chairs with part numbers but it does appear I ordered the correct early pads.
The pads I have fit with zero issues, they slot right in. Would the 1mm difference not allow the piston to come out?

I had considered this as well and a set of Textar (only option on WorldPac) pads will be delivered to the shop in the morning for me to compare thicknesses.


I am not going to make shims out of steel, I wanted to try using some steel plate to mimic a 50% or so worn set of pads, just to see how the pistons behave. I want to be able to get them out further than they are coming out currently. I suppose a small socket could perform the same function.


Sorry....typo....tjats..... 10mm.

Once you stop a few times....the windage or gap bdtween pads a nd rotor...should be a little less than 1mm....at rest. If yours is larger....something sounds wrong in the caliper. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Ok....Im worried about you!

So .....bear with me now. A while back you were looking at new pistons that turned out to be late models.....and early calipers.....or at least should be by the date of your car unless someone has swapped knuckles.

What I do not remember seeing....is what pistons you used in your early calipers and what pads you used.

The early rotors are very slightly thinner....the early pads are significantly thinner.

I know....the late and early rotors will not interchange on the spindles.....and the early rotors are just offset spaced too much to fit on a,late rofor. So the key is......I do not know if its possible that you have early calipers with late pistons and early pads on earky spindles.....or if you have early rotors and somehow got late calupera kn with early pads.
Either way....it "might" allow your pistons to extend further outward than you have available MC volume for.....leaving a weak pedal. Please post a picture of your rotor in the center where the cap snaps on.
Ray
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scirocco81
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

I used the original pistons from the early calipers, those late model pistons are on my tool box. A picture of the calipers after the rebuild is on page 2.

The Textar pads I ordered from Worldpac where the same thickness as the Centric pads I ordered originally so I have had the correct pads the whole time.

I cut 2 old leaf springs to act as my "worn pad" simulators. I slotted them in and I had to pump the brake pedal 4-5 times to get both pistons to meet them. I pushed the pistons back in and repeated this 3 times. Each time it took 4-5 pumps of the brake pedal for the pistons to come out far enough to meet them. The outer pistons wouldnt really move much at all until the inner piston had met the "pads", both sides acted this way.

The worse part of this all is, it was a wild goose chase. The pedal did not really improve with the front lines clamped so I am back to square one.

Ray, you had asked previously if any of those new master cylinder seals were loose on the pistons. I did not check, but what if they were? I keep going back to thinking I have an internal master cylinder leak...... since everything else seems to be working the way it should.

I think at this point I am going to get another set of seals for the master cylinder and send the rear valve out to be rebuilt. I am out of ideas!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
I used the original pistons from the early calipers, those late model pistons are on my tool box. A picture of the calipers after the rebuild is on page 2.

The Textar pads I ordered from Worldpac where the same thickness as the Centric pads I ordered originally so I have had the correct pads the whole time.

I cut 2 old leaf springs to act as my "worn pad" simulators. I slotted them in and I had to pump the brake pedal 4-5 times to get both pistons to meet them. I pushed the pistons back in and repeated this 3 times. Each time it took 4-5 pumps of the brake pedal for the pistons to come out far enough to meet them. The outer pistons wouldnt really move much at all until the inner piston had met the "pads", both sides acted this way.

The worse part of this all is, it was a wild goose chase. The pedal did not really improve with the front lines clamped so I am back to square one.

Ray, you had asked previously if any of those new master cylinder seals were loose on the pistons. I did not check, but what if they were? I keep going back to thinking I have an internal master cylinder leak...... since everything else seems to be working the way it should.

I think at this point I am going to get another set of seals for the master cylinder and send the rear valve out to be rebuilt. I am out of ideas!


Ok....lets recap a minute. So with your braje pad "simulators" installed.....it took consistently 4-5 pumps to make rotor contact....correct?

1. Was that starting from pistons fully compressed inward? If so that is normal.

2. Once your pad simulators made rotor contact......did the pedal at that point....lock up and give you a good pedal? It should have.

3. Once you let off the brake....how far did the pad simulators retract from the rotors? It should not be more than a handful of thousandths of an inch.

If......your pistons retracted farther than normal....and when I get home in the am.....I will check the book for exact retraction gap/windage.......if they retracted farther than necessary......which would be kind of rare.......the ONLY thing that can cause that is a stuck flap valve.

Why? Because when you have pumped several times and filled the cir uit and piston bore....when you let off the pedal.....the spring on the pedal and the piston combined.....pulls the piston back up.......by pulling it THROUGH the fluid. It does this by opening the flap valve so essentially the fluid stands still while the piston is pulled/pushed through it.....so the flap valve opena letting the fluid vent from one side of the piston to the otjer without either pusjing fluid back upstream to the reservoir .....or....creating suction as the piston moves through the fluid.

Usually though the caliper piston in the distorted piston seal has enough friction to keep the minor suction of a sticking flap valve from pulling it too far back in.

Still thinking you have a worn bore.
Ray
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scirocco81
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

1. Yes, fully compressed. I assumed it was normal.

2. No, I did not have a good pedal. The pedal goes 2/3 of the way to the floor.

3. Yes, the pads only retracted a fraction on an inch.

4. Who wants to buy a 411?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
1. Yes, fully compressed. I assumed it was normal.

2. No, I did not have a good pedal. The pedal goes 2/3 of the way to the floor.

3. Yes, the pads only retracted a fraction on an inch.

4. Who wants to buy a 411?


Nah...you dont want to sell it just for a brake issue.... Laughing

Nicest car they made!

But...your descriptions are getting detailed enough that really...you are just about nailing it down.

Ok..the pad extension and retraction says that the calipers are spot on.

The problem of having the pedal 2/3 down....is that the outer piston set on the MC...is having bleed by or not generating full power. The other 1/3 of pedal...is the inner piston working and stopping the pedal from going all the way to the floor.

If you had not rebuilt it with NEW seals...I would suspect a stiff older seal...collapsing and not allowing the first piston in the MC to build full pressure.

But.....the only few remaining items that can cause this are a rough bore walls or an oversized bore....or leaking flap valves. Not sticking...leaking.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Now, now you don't want to sell that car. I'm laughing at you because you sound like me when something just doesn't seem to smooth out. But that's just part of the challenge. You have put together one of the nicest and most original older 411's I know of. Take a break from the car for awhile, and come back to the problem later, and you'll probably find that it isn't all that big of a deal. I'm looking forward to your finished job. What you've done so far is fantastic, and we all appreciate it. Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

DO not give up it toke me 6 years to get my 411 on the road .I used a super Beetle master cylinder it goes down 1/2 way but stops easy I'm going to put a empi one 17-2808 20.6mm to get a beater pedal. You will love this car when you drive it .let it marinade .. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Thank you for the words of encouragement guys!

I found another seal kit with virgin seals (no piston swapping like the rockauto kit), its on my toolbox but I am taking a break from the 411 and am going to get my 84 Rabbit GTI back in the shop and work on that for awhile.

I'll get back on the 411 in a bit.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
Thank you for the words of encouragement guys!

I found another seal kit with virgin seals (no piston swapping like the rockauto kit), its on my toolbox but I am taking a break from the 411 and am going to get my 84 Rabbit GTI back in the shop and work on that for awhile.

I'll get back on the 411 in a bit.


I know you will be away from the 411 for a while....and an 84 gti is definately a wortgy and fun car.

Another thing to look at.....and we discussed this in Titan3c's master cylinder thread I think.

The output ports on the MC.....two of them have volume restrictors. I fully "get" what the books say about what should be plumbed to the reatricted outlets.....and understand why.....but from memory.....most type 4 cars I have owned....had the lines plumbed backwards according to most books. While it never seemed to make any performance issue....once you got the brakes sorted out......I feel it may have been a part of what made many of these difficult to bleed. I will revisit it again this weekend. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Alright, who bought the ball joints that were on the BugCity site? You just messed up my plans!!!!! Laughing


On a more serious note, I think I may cut the 411 loose. 5 VWs is too many, I just sold my 91 GTI and downsizing to 1 car I can concentrate on is probably a good idea.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

scirocco81 wrote:
Alright, who bought the ball joints that were on the BugCity site? You just messed up my plans!!!!! Laughing


On a more serious note, I think I may cut the 411 loose. 5 VWs is too many, I just sold my 91 GTI and downsizing to 1 car I can concentrate on is probably a good idea.


I would keep the 411. Virtually any other car....I can get one. Even a 91 GTI. They made about 10X the number of GTI as 411. And....itw rare to find one as straight as yours...and....once sorted out they are more comfortable and fun to drive...and better handling than any other acvw short of a 914. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Hi scirocco, I was reading through the thread (great info you posted) and wanted to see if you found a solution to the brake problem. I have the same issue. I replaced and rebuilt the system and pedal goes to the floor. I took a break to work on other things, but should really get the brakes figured out.
Thanks, Michael
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

I have not worked on the 411 in a bot now. I still feel the master cylinder is the issue and I have bought another set of seals go "rebuild" it again.

Ray mentioned back several posts ago if the seals I installed fit loosely on the pistons, I have to admit I didnt bother to check at the time. I feel this is probably the problem, a seal is leaking inside the master.

We have been lucky the past several weeks at work and have remained steady so the usual winter slow down hasnt hit in full force yet. I'm sure its coming and once it does I will give the brakes another go.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Also you should measure the bore as well whike you have it apart.

Measure the piston head....and then the bore. You can do this with a good telescopic gauge and a micrometer. The bore should not be than .004" larger than the piston head.

It can be absolute. 005" max.....but when it gets to. 005" or larger....AND if there is any variatikn in the fit of the seals on the piston or if the piston seals are a very tiny amount too small or slightly hard with age......this whole combination can cause internal leakage from circuit to cir,uit. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:23 am    Post subject: Re: New 411 owner Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I'll measure and see what I come up with.
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